277 replies to this topic

[Miss Soupy]

^ pretty much agree. If it's not right for them to bash, it's certainly not right for us to bash. There are no excuses that are valid, it just shouldn't be done towards any character. And what's the point of blaming a character? XD Nothing, it is the author that directs them.

If I have a problem with Sakura I always blame Kishi XD

@Phantom

I know it is sometimes hard to read the tone of a discussion, especially when one disagrees, but I think you are probably reading it more harshly than it was intended. I didn't see anything disrespectful, since disagreeing is not just automatically...disrespect. We don't all have to agree about everything around here, right? And if ciardha makes a point, anyone is allowed to speak their mind about it. That is the point of a forum. As long as you aren't bashing or being obviously rude, one should be able to comment on it.

[Phantom_999]

Yeah I know that's the problem with leaving messages miss soupy Okay so anyways I may have worded my comment wrong I wasn't thinking, so I apologize for sounding critical,but This is what I meant: Pointing out what we might view as Hinata's flaws and down right insulting and bashing her are two different things. We never said she was ugly, useless, etc. like how Sakura haters go about it. Hinata is deliberately portrayed as she is as with every other character for reasons unknown to us. Sure she might have stepped up to the plate recently but Hinata fans are over exaggerating everything including bashing Sakura. Now what some say here are just are views, and we're not saying them with malice so you might be confusing that with bashing. If we said like this for example" that no good, balloon chested is so f***ing useless! why the s*** is Kishi keeping her here!!? she should die in a ditch!!! And her corpse should left for the worms and animals because that's what she gets for being a m*****F***ing eyesore to us!" THAT is bashing so I agree we should not be unfair to Hinata's character but we never gave her any hate comments You could understand that right? And ciardha wasn't saying anything out of dislike it's just her point of view thats all I'm saying. And as for that Hinata was written like that comment, yes she is but what has that got to do with anything?If that is used as an excuse it only sounds like you don't see the story as a story and that Its only supposed to be looked at and not enjoyed. Hinata has flaws just like any other character and it's okay to discuss them without hurting feelings. If It's baseless all the more reason to discuss it rationally. Besides what you say is unfair for judging Hinata's character is the same reason why others WOULD say them. Her character isn't explored enough to make just judgments so we'll just leave it at that. Lastly even IF narutoforums.com is polling internationally how do you know its not All american fans that voted for NaruHina? Its too controversial to debate so let's just drop it. It doesn't matter which pairing has the most votes people, we can only look to the future and see how the pairings turn out. And NaruSaku seems very likely at the moment despite it's small community.

Edited by Phantom_999, 17 July 2011 - 03:29 AM.

[sonicsucks]

She loved loves the main character way before the main heroine. That is why she is relevant. Sakura however loves the main rival. Which is why she's so unpopular comapred to Hinata. And that hasn't changed.

[Namaenash]

She loved loves the main character way before the main heroine. That is why she is relevant. Sakura however loves the main rival. Which is why she's so unpopular comapred to Hinata. And that hasn't changed.

There's also this term in story telling called 'character development'. Just saying...

[catsi563]

Something which hinata deliberately and totaly lacks. But which Sakura has recieved in boat loads and continues to do so.

[CloudMountainJuror]

Something which hinata deliberately and totaly lacks. But which Sakura has recieved in boat loads and continues to do so.

Yeah... But the fans probably think that Hinata is peeeeeeerfect the way she is, that she doesn't need to change one little bit from the shy, adoooooorable girl she is.

[Nate River]

Yeah... But the fans probably think that Hinata is peeeeeeerfect the way she is, that she doesn't need to change one little bit from the shy, adoooooorable girl she is.

Watch the bashing.

[Phantom_999]

It's because Hinata is portrayed as the "ideal" woman I'm sure of it. You know: quiet, reserved, does not argue back, well mannered, gentle nature, etc. Just saying That is the stereo type of what a girl should be in society so that's probably why they love Hinata and bash Sakura because Sakura isn't portrayed as "ladylike" But I think Girls should be encouraged to have strong will and a feisty spirit. It's sexist to like Hinata and hate Sakura just because of the attitudes if you ask me and it's hypocrisy as well. I CAN'T STAND hypocrisy just saying

[Anguyen92]

It's because Hinata is portrayed as the "ideal" woman I'm sure of it. You know: quiet, reserved, does not argue back, well mannered, gentle nature, etc. Just saying That is the stereo type of what a girl should be in society so that's probably why they love Hinata and bash Sakura because Sakura isn't portrayed as "ladylike" But I think Girls should be encouraged to have strong will and a feisty spirit. It's sexist to like Hinata and hate Sakura just because of the attitudes if you ask me and it's hypocrisy as well. I CAN'T STAND hypocrisy just saying

Bleep....., I agree men in life need to have that kind of woman who has that feisty attitude to bring them back to reality, which in the process makes them stronger. I mean what's the benefit of having that quiet reserved person other than to boss them around? Honestly, there is not that much gainage in terms of being a better person.

Edited by anguyen92, 03 August 2011 - 03:37 PM.

[Phantom_999]

That's what people in the West think. For Japanese people, the ideal woman is always the feisty one. That's why women like Sakura(or much 'worse' than Sakura), tsundere are the main heroines.

Bleep....., I agree men in life need to have that kind of woman who has that feisty attitude to bring them back to reality, which in the process makes them stronger. I mean what's the benefit of having that quiet reserved person other than to boss them around? Honestly, there is not that much gainage in terms of being a better person.

No it's the general stereotype for girls in any culture. Like for instance let me ask a personal question top all female members on this in on this site; have any of your parents/ guardians or elders in general ever told you to act more ladylike and that it was unladylike to shout, play aggressively, swear/curse, participate in sports, fight, lose your temper, etc. so in other words act like Hinata? I'm pretty sure a lot of you have heard it at least once by someone. anyways I'm sure Manga artists make tsunderes to break and to stop reinforcing that stereotype because it is sexist and simpleminded to think all girls/women should act like that and we shouldn't expect them to. IF they act like that it should be out of personal, uninfluenced choice in my opinion that is

Edited by Phantom_999, 03 August 2011 - 06:11 PM.

[merryGOflava]

She loved loves the main character way before the main heroine. That is why she is relevant. Sakura however loves the main rival. Which is why she's so unpopular comapred to Hinata. And that hasn't changed.

well i kinda disagree.

akane didnt like ranma at first but shes more revalent than shampoo(which loved him) *ranma 1/2*

sailor moon didnt like darien at first but shes more relevant than ray( loved him) *sailor moon*

chidori didnt like sosuke at first but shes more relevant than tessa( loved him) *full metal panic*

its not about who likes who at first, its about who likes the person in the very end. and sakura is the main character just like any main character she goes through a change somewhere in the story. seriously though if sakura liked naruto right of the bat it wouldnt be fun....kinda boring actually.

[Paptala]

She loved loves the main character way before the main heroine. That is why she is relevant. Sakura however loves the main rival. Which is why she's so unpopular comapred to Hinata. And that hasn't changed.

And Sakura is Naruto's team mate, one of the people that saved him from the hell of loneliness, and the person he is canonically in love with. She is far more relevant to the plot and to Naruto individually than Hinata ever has been.

Loving Naruto before Sakura did loses its significance because :

a) she never showed it to Naruto ; she may as well have given him the cold shoulder like everyone else did for all the difference that it made to Naruto. Regardless of her shyness or what ever other factors held her back from showing kindness to Naruto and alleviating his loneliness and feeling that everyone hated him, it doesn't change the fact that she wasn't there for him when he needed it the most. That role goes to Iruka, Sakura, Sasuke, and Kakashi.

b) Hinata loving Naruto for so long hasn't been shown to make any significant impact on Naruto nor has it made Hinata any more relevant to the story.

Sakura's type of character has never been well received by the western fandom in my experience.

Edited by Paptala, 04 August 2011 - 12:35 AM.

[Super Boom]

@Merry: Thanks for those examples! I never really followed any of those series, so it's nice to see how easily that NH argument can be deflated.

Out of curiousity, did any of those girls (Akane, Sailor Moon, or Chidori) have feelings for another guy before the ones you used in your example? Maybe I'm just being greedy, trying to add an SS analogy to the guns you've already given me for my shipping debate arsenal. Bwa ha ha!

And Sakura is Naruto's team mate, one of the people that saved him from the hell of loneliness, and the person he is canonically in love with. She is far more relevant to the plot and to Naruto individually than Hinata ever has been.

Loving Naruto before Sakura did loses its significance because :

a) she never showed it to Naruto ; she may as well have given him the cold shoulder like everyone else did for all the difference that it made to Naruto. Regardless of her shyness or what ever other factors held her back from showing kindness to Naruto and alleviating his loneliness and feeling that everyone hated him, it doesn't change the fact that she wasn't there for him when he needed it the most. That role goes to Iruka, Sakura, Sasuke, and Kakashi.

b) Hinata loving Naruto for so long hasn't been shown to make any significant impact on Naruto nor has it made Hinata any more relevant to the story.

Epicly true post, like usual. Being in love with Naruto really doesn't amount to much if she's basically just rooting for him to herself. To me, every NaruHina moment seems to revolve entirely around Hinata's character, rather than Naruto's. He inspires her and provides her with a reason to grow, but what's she really done for Naruto's character, other than provide him with motivation to fight Neji and Pein (roles that could have easily fallen to someone else)?

I love bringing up the Naruto vs. Kiba fight to Hinata die-hards. During the fight, only one person vocally supported him. On top of that, when things look bad, who's faith in Naruto seems to waver? The best part about that fight is how early in the series it takes place. Even if Hinata supported Naruto before Sakura, it looks to me like Sakura surpassed her there before the manga even hit the 100-chapter mark.

Sakura's type of character has never been well received by the western fandom in my experience.

I've noticed that too. I'm curious, though, if it's related to her 'tsundere' personality, or just the fact that she developed faith in Naruto rather than having a static devotion to him. Or, if it's just the fact that she had feelings for the foil before the hero.
I think tsundere characters seem to get a lot of flack in the Western fandom, but I think the Sasuke crush might be tied into it too. I'm not sure if the example really works, but, in the Bleach fandom, I seem to see a lot more hate towards Orihime than Rukia, with Rukia being a more abrasive, tsundere-ish character than Orihime. But I don't know if that bashing is limited to the Western fandom, so it might be a poor comparison. *shrugs*

[Anguyen92]

Epicly true post, like usual. Being in love with Naruto really doesn't amount to much if she's basically just rooting for him to herself. To me, every NaruHina moment seems to revolve entirely around Hinata's character, rather than Naruto's. He inspires her and provides her with a reason to grow, but what's she really done for Naruto's character, other than provide him with motivation to fight Neji and Pein (roles that could have easily fallen to someone else)?

I love bringing up the Naruto vs. Kiba fight to Hinata die-hards. During the fight, only one person vocally supported him. On top of that, when things look bad, who's faith in Naruto seems to waver? The best part about that fight is how early in the series it takes place. Even if Hinata supported Naruto before Sakura, it looks to me like Sakura surpassed her there before the manga even hit the 100-chapter mark.


I've noticed that too. I'm curious, though, if it's related to her 'tsundere' personality, or just the fact that she developed faith in Naruto rather than having a static devotion to him. Or, if it's just the fact that she had feelings for the foil before the hero.
I think tsundere characters seem to get a lot of flack in the Western fandom, but I think the Sasuke crush might be tied into it too. I'm not sure if the example really works, but, in the Bleach fandom, I seem to see a lot more hate towards Orihime than Rukia, with Rukia being a more abrasive, tsundere-ish character than Orihime. But I don't know if that bashing is limited to the Western fandom, so it might be a poor comparison. *shrugs*

All righty, where to begin, btw I agree with everything you said, the first part of the post, it is true that Naruto probably wouldn't gain anything by having naruhina canon, unless someone here could name some benefits that being with Sakura does not have, since the only time that matter was the things you said and that was probably out of mutual friendship and defending a comrade's honor and pride, unless Kishi was trolling us and it was a romantic moment .

For the second part, I can't recall much about that fight other than probably the flashbacks, the part where Naruto farted to the finish, and of course Sakura giving vocal support, but for the record only she actually cheered for him right?

For the third part, I don't why people are always against tsundere, they're there to make the hero stronger in a way that does not seem predictable or a cliche.

[Miss Soupy]

I think tsundere characters seem to get a lot of flack in the Western fandom, but I think the Sasuke crush might be tied into it too. I'm not sure if the example really works, but, in the Bleach fandom, I seem to see a lot more hate towards Orihime than Rukia, with Rukia being a more abrasive, tsundere-ish character than Orihime. But I don't know if that bashing is limited to the Western fandom, so it might be a poor comparison. *shrugs*

I think it has to do with the amount of mistakes a character makes in the eyes of the readers. Both Sakura and Orihime are characters that make plenty of mistakes during the story because they are meant to have obvious flaws they need to over come. If the author is not quick to make them overcome their problems, those characters will lose a lot of likeability, especially to the less patient readers. Look at both characters today. They still make a lot of the same mistakes that most would have expected fixed by now.

At least this is something I think about, since I am a fan of these characters XD I definitely feel frustration with the authors over development or lack thereof. At the same time, they interest me because they, due to their mistakes, have more depth in my eyes.

[merryGOflava]

@ boom

yes akane liked a doctor

sailor moon liked this blondie.

and chidori....she didnt like anyone but she did NOT like sosuke XDD most abusive chick ever XD lol but it was funny.

[Super Boom]

For the second part, I can't recall much about that fight other than probably the flashbacks, the part where Naruto farted to the finish, and of course Sakura giving vocal support, but for the record only she actually cheered for him right?

Yeah, that's what I meant, sorry if that was unclear. Kakashi (and maybe Lee) were supporting him, but Sakura was the only one yelling out his name.
By the way, you know the underlined words in my post are links, right? Sorry if you knew that, I wasn't sure if you saw the pics or not.

I think it has to do with the amount of mistakes a character makes in the eyes of the readers. Both Sakura and Orihime are characters that make plenty of mistakes during the story because they are meant to have obvious flaws they need to over come. If the author is not quick to make them overcome their problems, those characters will lose a lot of likeability, especially to the less patient readers. Look at both characters today. They still make a lot of the same mistakes that most would have expected fixed by now.

At least this is something I think about, since I am a fan of these characters XD I definitely feel frustration with the authors over development or lack thereof. At the same time, they interest me because they, due to their mistakes, have more depth in my eyes.

I think you're right on the money there. It makes sense, since character growth seems to be a huge aspect of both characters. I don't really know if Hinata has much in common with Rukia (if anything), but I think Sakura and Orihime's personality and character growth seem to outshine other female characters in their respective manga. I suppose their change in opinion on the hero can be compared, but maybe that comparison fall flats, considering Orihime had a negative opinion of Ichigo for only the first few chapters.
Interestingly enough though, a lot of SJ crossover fanart I've seen use Sakura and Orihime instead of Sakura/Rukia or Orihime/Hinata. So I think it might be the case that the characters might have the same appeal beyond their personality types.

I also agree that author can ruin a characters' perception through slow problem resolution. I mean, 500+ chapters into Naruto and we're still being reminded of Sakura's unhealthy feelings for Sasuke? On top of that, it's been 10 chapters since that scene, which is 2.5 months for manga readers. I guess I really hope we get a few more scenes proving that Sakura has gotten over Sasuke. I really want to see her as a heroine, but the whole romantic decision thing is weighing her down, in my opinion.

@ boom

yes akane liked a doctor

sailor moon liked this blondie.

and chidori....she didnt like anyone but she did NOT like sosuke XDD most abusive chick ever XD lol but it was funny.

Woo hoo! I guess the comparisons work on multiple levels.

Edited by Boom...Winning, 04 August 2011 - 03:57 AM.

[Anguyen92]

Yeah, that's what I meant, sorry if that was unclear. Kakashi (and maybe Lee) were supporting him, but Sakura was the only one yelling out his name.
By the way, you know the underlined words in my post are links, right? Sorry if you knew that, I wasn't sure if you saw the pics or not.

Well, I knew there were links, I just opt not to click on them because I don't want to reminace back to a time, where Naruto was such a brat and was annoyingly cocky and Sakura used to be a bit*h (obviously, she toned it down a bit at the exams but not up to her shippuden days), thankfully three years of canon time, cured that problem and made me like their characters better than before. So basically, what's our conclusion to the matter? Obviously, we still going to see Hinata as a side character while her followers will do what they do and its never going to end. Why do people like her characteristics for the record, I probably know it was talked about eariler in the thread, but I just need a clear accurate view of why people like her character?

[Konohakitten]

I personally dont care for Hinata I cant stand her lack of character development....and by development I dont mean her knockers. I think that if her fan base wasn't so rude and large in America I could handle Hinata better. However her fandom just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Everyone here as made so many valid points, I've always seen Hinata as a shallow person that only idolizes and admires Naruto, and those two things dont equal love. She has so little panel time and she clearly knows nothing about Naruto or his inner turmoil with the Kyuubi or Sasuke. I always tell Naru/Hina fans why should Naruto end up with her if shes not important at all. If she was she'd have more panel time and would actually progress as a character! They feed me all these fabrications that Naruto loves her and that she will do anything for him...that's just bull crap. I've always said that Hinata doesn't have real faith in Naruto, perfect example is the fight with Pain. She just couldn't stay put and not get involved, she just had to butt in because she had no faith that Naruto could pull through on his own. Her whole selfish speech about love was painful to watch, and it's the one thing all Naru/Hina fans base their arguments on. With her little "rescue" falling to pieces Naruto was left with so much hatred that he almost lost his soul to the Kyuubi. Most Naru/Hina fans stop arguing with me when I point out that Naruto could have lost his soul because of a fangirl. Besides if this confession was so real and important why did she not approach Naruto when he came back, or even better why didn't Naruto go looking for her?

Hinata isn't the type of women Naruto needs, he's the hero and he should get who he wants. Yes Sakura still has feelings for Sasuke, but she and Naruto's relationship has development so much compared to Naruto and Hinata's. Also Why would Kishi have Naruto's Father fall in love with someone that is so much like Sakura. Why isn't it obvious that this is foreshadowing, why is it so hard to see Kishi is putting an end to the pairing wars XD. I guess overall Hinata is boring, annoying, shallow, selfish, and delusional.Neji should have been born into the royal family instead of her. He's grown he's become such an awesome character and he interacts with his team mates. I guess If I could change one thing about Hinata it would be her fans, they have to be the rudest shippers I've ever seen of any pairing. Is their aggression a sign that they really know deep down their favorite couple will never happen?

[rikakim94]

If hinatas character change into something more then having unrequited love. I don't mind naruhina happening if she would have made a great impact by saying something right after the pain arc. This would have shown how much she actually loves naruto by a doing a certain thing called Action Rather then keeping her love to herself. I'm not saying this because I hate hinata but this certain role she has is making her repetitive...Also another thing to point out action speaks louder then words! Her confession was one in a way but she needs to do more of different action. Or by talking reality sense it's kishi that needs to do more of it if he wants to...