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#201 tricksie

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 05:36 PM

Alright. I've held out of this for a while, but I think the library analogy is wrong. And I think it's a little self-righteous to lob "Piracy!" at anyone who looks at a scanlation.

Don't think of a library. Think of radio. We are not pirates when we hear a song for "free" over the airwaves. The recording industry uses the radio industry to market their songs, radio makes money off the music. It's not a partnership, but it is a mutually exclusive thing. One truly could not survive without the other.

As for Viz media, they have let the scanlation sites run rampant out there in the world because it benefitted them. THOSE SITES ARE FREE MARKETING. If Viz did a better job of using the interwebs, then these sites wouldn't exist at all.

There are a bunch of people claiming that reading the manga online stops you from buying it. But let me ask you, how many people can buy an up-to-date copy at their local store? And it's alway in stock, unfailingly? The answer is not many, as proved by the posters in this thread.

Viz knows this! The scanlation sites fill a gap they have had no interest in until now.

The scanlation sites are there because Viz (or whoever publishes it) does not provide easily accessible, up-to-date copies. In this day and age there is no excuse. In the time it takes to print off the copies of WSJ, someone could have translated it formally, put it on a paying site and none of us would ever look at these free, poorly translated things again. Why? We'd all be paying 99 cents a week for Naruto, or $5 for premium access to all the manga you could handle.

But Viz uses these little sites as a way to perpetuate their dinosaur print-only business model. Now someone at the top has gotten wind of it, and someone waaaaaaay lower down sent out some cease-and-desist letters. And honestly, I think it's probably a knee-jerk reaction to some lagging sales. It shows action within the company with the least amount of work. Is Viz doing anything to fill this need? Not that we know of.

The people who run hobby sites like onemanga do make money off the ads. But I doubt they make much, and if you wrap that into the cost of hosting and updating, then I bet some run them at a loss.

Take this site for instance, before you go comparing your shining conscience to someone else's because you don't read "pirated" manga, think about how much money you've contributed to this site. Someone pays for it, and we all use it too!

I'm sick of people blaming the end user for doing something wrong. The company is the one who has let down it's client, not the other way around.

The publisher has promoted a wildly popular manga, but then half-asses it when it comes to translation and distribution. They have broken the inherent promise of those promotions. Of course it's going to lead to enthusiasts filling in the gap that they refuse to fill.

I don't mean to be a hard-ass, and I'm not responding to one person in general. But this same scenario has played out in the music and journalism industries.

They want the most money while making the least accomodations to their users.

And only after there has been some pain — like Napster, etc., for music, and the demise of many middle-size daily papers that pay out for shoddy national coverage instead of doing the best job locally — do they change they're model.

(And if you support Kishimoto personally, then by all means send him a personal check. Don't delude yourself into thinking that buying the manga from Barnes and Noble is a good cause. It is an unfortunate truth that the creative person is often at the end of a long line of takers.)

Viz has the ability to publish mangas online, distribute them globally, immediately, with easy translations into nearly every language, as well as inflicting neligible impact on the environment, with the net result of more money from more people and while incurring less overhead, and yet they are slow to embrace it.... I make no apologies for reading onemanga. Ultimately they're doing me a disservice, not the other way round.

And if they feel a kick in the shin from the little guy, then good. It's time for them to change.

Shannaro.

edit: been writing fight scenes this morning. can you tell? heheelq7.png

Edited by tricksie, 27 July 2010 - 06:22 PM.


#202 Muffins?

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 06:11 PM

Just a quick update, Not sure when this happened but One Piece, Bleach and Naruto have been pulled from Mangafox.

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#203 Dreamer

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 06:26 PM

QUOTE (Muffins? @ Jul 27 2010, 01:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just a quick update, Not sure when this happened but One Piece, Bleach and Naruto have been pulled from Mangafox.


Yeah i think someone mentioned that earlier. Hopefully the other sites will stay up a while longer. sad.gif It may be safer for now, if downloads are used instead of chapter hosting on manga sites.

I agree though on us going in circles with this debate. happy.gif

Edited by Uzumakikage, 27 July 2010 - 07:56 PM.


#204 socermania2

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 08:14 PM

QUOTE (tricksie @ Jul 27 2010, 06:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Alright. I've held out of this for a while, but I think the library analogy is wrong. And I think it's a little self-righteous to lob "Piracy!" at anyone who looks at a scanlation.

Don't think of a library. Think of radio. We are not pirates when we hear a song for "free" over the airwaves. The recording industry uses the radio industry to market their songs, radio makes money off the music. It's not a partnership, but it is a mutually exclusive thing. One truly could not survive without the other.

As for Viz media, they have let the scanlation sites run rampant out there in the world because it benefitted them. THOSE SITES ARE FREE MARKETING. If Viz did a better job of using the interwebs, then these sites wouldn't exist at all.

There are a bunch of people claiming that reading the manga online stops you from buying it. But let me ask you, how many people can buy an up-to-date copy at their local store? And it's alway in stock, unfailingly? The answer is not many, as proved by the posters in this thread.

Viz knows this! The scanlation sites fill a gap they have had no interest in until now.

The scanlation sites are there because Viz (or whoever publishes it) does not provide easily accessible, up-to-date copies. In this day and age there is no excuse. In the time it takes to print off the copies of WSJ, someone could have translated it formally, put it on a paying site and none of us would ever look at these free, poorly translated things again. Why? We'd all be paying 99 cents a week for Naruto, or $5 for premium access to all the manga you could handle.

But Viz uses these little sites as a way to perpetuate their dinosaur print-only business model. Now someone at the top has gotten wind of it, and someone waaaaaaay lower down sent out some cease-and-desist letters. And honestly, I think it's probably a knee-jerk reaction to some lagging sales. It shows action within the company with the least amount of work. Is Viz doing anything to fill this need? Not that we know of.

The people who run hobby sites like onemanga do make money off the ads. But I doubt they make much, and if you wrap that into the cost of hosting and updating, then I bet some run them at a loss.

Take this site for instance, before you go comparing your shining conscience to someone else's because you don't read "pirated" manga, think about how much money you've contributed to this site. Someone pays for it, and we all use it too!

I'm sick of people blaming the end user for doing something wrong. The company is the one who has let down it's client, not the other way around.

The publisher has promoted a wildly popular manga, but then half-asses it when it comes to translation and distribution. They have broken the inherent promise of those promotions. Of course it's going to lead to enthusiasts filling in the gap that they refuse to fill.

I don't mean to be a hard-ass, and I'm not responding to one person in general. But this same scenario has played out in the music and journalism industries.

They want the most money while making the least accomodations to their users.

And only after there has been some pain — like Napster, etc., for music, and the demise of many middle-size daily papers that pay out for shoddy national coverage instead of doing the best job locally — do they change they're model.

(And if you support Kishimoto personally, then by all means send him a personal check. Don't delude yourself into thinking that buying the manga from Barnes and Noble is a good cause. It is an unfortunate truth that the creative person is often at the end of a long line of takers.)

Viz has the ability to publish mangas online, distribute them globally, immediately, with easy translations into nearly every language, as well as inflicting neligible impact on the environment, with the net result of more money from more people and while incurring less overhead, and yet they are slow to embrace it.... I make no apologies for reading onemanga. Ultimately they're doing me a disservice, not the other way round.

And if they feel a kick in the shin from the little guy, then good. It's time for them to change.

Shannaro.

edit: been writing fight scenes this morning. can you tell? heheelq7.png


Sorry, but scanlation sites are in no way free marketing for VIZ or any other manga publishers. Many people already read the manga, then found out "Hey, why buy it when I can read it for free?"

Yes, VIZ needs to hurry up with their translation. Unfortunately, beggars cannot be choosers. If you can't read Japanese and get hold of the scans, my friend, you will have to wait.

FYI Scanlation sites do not help sales. Whether you think it's a knee-jerk reaction is your business, but scanlation sites don't help business, and are illegal. They don't help business and are using your stuff? You can shut it down.

Now, I'm not trying to say Viz is GOOD; they've half-assed everything. But we are in the wrong, for doing something illegal that is not supposed to be done. Unfortunately, Viz is in control of the American releases; we have to wait and see.
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#205 Muffins?

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 09:46 PM

QUOTE (Uzumakikage @ Jul 27 2010, 12:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah i think someone mentioned that earlier. Hopefully the other sites will stay up a while longer. sad.gif It may be safer for now, if downloads are used instead of chapter hosting on manga sites.

I agree though on us going in circles with this debate. happy.gif

I hope so, I think MS will be fine for now since they only post the most recent chapters. Yeah I'd recommend mangastream.com if you want to DL your manga. If anyone posted about Naruto,Bleach and One Piece sorry I didn't want to look through all the pages tongue.gif

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#206 Insurrection

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 09:50 PM

QUOTE (Muffins? @ Jul 27 2010, 04:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I hope so, I think MS will be fine for now since they only post the most recent chapters. Yeah I'd recommend mangastream.com if you want to DL your manga. If anyone posted about Naruto,Bleach and One Piece sorry I didn't want to look through all the pages tongue.gif


Ew.......that's not good. MS has a "policy" against downloading their stuff, wouldn't recommend that then they'd take it out.

Edited by Insurrection, 27 July 2010 - 09:53 PM.


#207 Muffins?

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 09:53 PM

QUOTE (Insurrection @ Jul 27 2010, 03:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ew.......that's not good. MS has a policy against downloading their stuff, wouldn't recommend that then they'd take it out.

Oh my, sorry I didn't mean mangastream I meant mangatraders.com. I'm sorry forgive me I'll give you some of my pie argh1.png

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#208 Insurrection

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 09:57 PM

QUOTE (Muffins? @ Jul 27 2010, 04:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Oh my, sorry I didn't mean mangastream I meant mangatraders.com. I'm sorry forgive me I'll give you some of my pie argh1.png


You are forgiven. Thought something was up, because MS wants to work as a "Grey Site" *knockonwood*, but mangatraders....yeah.

Edited by Insurrection, 27 July 2010 - 11:22 PM.


#209 Muffins?

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 10:04 PM

QUOTE (Insurrection @ Jul 27 2010, 03:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You are forgiven. Thought something was up, because MS wants to work as a "Grey Site", but mangatraders....yeah.

Yeah we can only hope that they don't nab MS to soon cause it does have the quickest Naruto releases (out of the sites I know)
The "Grey Sites" are bound to stay open longer but how long is the question? I can't really say anything else without reiterating something somebody all ready said sweatdrop.gif

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#210 Dreamer

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 10:21 PM

QUOTE (Muffins? @ Jul 27 2010, 05:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah we can only hope that they don't nab MS to soon cause it does have the quickest Naruto releases (out of the sites I know)
The "Grey Sites" are bound to stay open longer but how long is the question? I can't really say anything else without reiterating something somebody all ready said sweatdrop.gif


If something was to happen to MS "knock on wood that it don't" then i'm sure scanlators will start supplying the "Grey" sites.

Edited by Uzumakikage, 27 July 2010 - 10:22 PM.


#211 Cloud

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 10:31 PM

QUOTE (Aethos @ Jul 27 2010, 12:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Oh well I was just saying something to Cloud to shut him up.


I'm sorry. I missed the part where you're the king and I'm the **** servant working under you.

Look, library books are already paid for. I don't see where this legal piracy crap comes into play. Libraries are built by taxpayers. Most of the libraries books new or old come from donations or taxes.

Governments encourage education, therefore they might buy "x" copies of a certain book and place it into the library. Therefore, money has been given the publisher and writers.

Money has been paid, therefore taking it out for free isn't the same thing as pirating manga online.

Look, you can keep arguing with your circle of mistaken arguments. I really have nothing to say to you after that comment of telling me to shut up.

Have a nice day.

#212 Strangelove

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 10:46 PM

Well...its been a week...and One Manga is still on...what they should do is basically shut down their site...

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#213 Dreamer

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 12:44 AM

QUOTE (Strangelove @ Jul 27 2010, 05:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well...its been a week...and One Manga is still on...what they should do is basically shut down their site...


That makes me wonder if they plan on backing up their data files and creating a new site.

#214 Guest_Aethos_*

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 01:42 AM

QUOTE (Cloud @ Jul 27 2010, 11:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm sorry. I missed the part where you're the king and I'm the **** servant working under you.



Look, you can keep arguing with your circle of mistaken arguments. I really have nothing to say to you after that comment of telling me to shut up.

Have a nice day.


Considering all you do is flame me every time I post on this forum. Give me one good reason why I should take anything you say seriously, or even debate with you seriously. Get off your damn high horse. You're not some internet tough guy.

But I'll at least answer your question.

QUOTE
Look, library books are already paid for. I don't see where this legal piracy crap comes into play. Libraries are built by taxpayers. Most of the libraries books new or old come from donations or taxes.

Governments encourage education, therefore they might buy "x" copies of a certain book and place it into the library. Therefore, money has been given the publisher and writers.

Money has been paid, therefore taking it out for free isn't the same thing as pirating manga online.


and who's paying for them? You? I don't seem to remember ever having to pay to take a library book out. Cause you know it's a free service. Something that onemanga provided manga readers. Plus you can be rest assured that if libraries weren't covered by the government. If they were private institutions you'd see many more legal issues come up against them, and at that point they wouldn't seem so legal. Also as I said many libraries especially the one in the twon I live in only work on books that are given freely to them through donations. They're not giving money to the publishers then. So really you may call it a mistaken argument but in the case of services libraries and onemanga are no different, but of course government control over libraries give you reason to justify your actions. Just as if onemanga had been under the publishers control the whole time, and doing the exact same services they always have you wouldn't be kittening about how the site is hurting the middle man.

Face it even the bandwagon people are the biggest bunch of hypocrites. They're telling the "pirates" that they should not get free stuff, and should pay for everything. Yet even you feel that you deserve free stuff as long as you can justify it legally. Again tying it into the libraries. Think of it this way. Viz and Tokyopop put free scans of all their manga up on their site, and don't charge anyone for it. Outside of the actual collectors I bet you the majority of people still wouldn't buy the graphic novels. Because now they can get their kitten for free without having to pay for it legally, and best of all they don't have to worry about legal issues like they would under onemanga.

See? Instant justification for legal piracy. The ultimate loophole. The bandwagon pushers are no different than any "pirate." But of course you'll always try to prove that you're the better man because you're doing things "the right way." It's a sickening attitude because at least pirates can admit they want their kitten for free instead of trying to hide behind the flag of consumerism while still pirating stuff on the side.

Edited by Aethos, 28 July 2010 - 01:43 AM.


#215 Cloud

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 01:56 AM

QUOTE (Aethos @ Jul 27 2010, 09:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Considering all you do is flame me every time I post on this forum. Give me one good reason why I should take anything you say seriously, or even debate with you seriously. Get off your damn high horse. You're not some internet tough guy.


Likewise, bro. Don't think too highly of yourself. And you're not debating at this point, you're flaming. I don't think I've flamed you for the past few posts you made. I only said your logic was "great". I didn't insult you there did I?

And don't insult one of my friends. dl316bh was trying to have a civil conversation before you blew up in his face.

You're on the high horse now, and I know I'm not some internet tough guy. But hey, thanks for the compliment. I'll take it.


QUOTE (Aethos @ Jul 27 2010, 09:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
and who's paying for them? You? I don't seem to remember ever having to pay to take a library book out. Cause you know it's a free service. Something that onemanga provided manga readers. Plus you can be rest assured that if libraries weren't covered by the government. If they were private institutions you'd see many more legal issues come up against them, and at that point they wouldn't seem so legal. Also as I said many libraries especially the one in the twon I live in only work on books that are given freely to them through donations. They're not giving money to the publishers then.


Look, as I have said before, and many people have also said it before me. Even if libraries were private, books that are donated. DONATED. Means either someone already PAID for the books and are freely giving them for people to share.

SHARE. Not keep. Onemanga and whatever other manga sites, you can download every single picture. Ever try and keep a library book? Yeah, costs at least 10-20 dollars if you do "keep" it.

There are some libraries that require payments to sign up. Know what those payments do? Buy new books. Or restore lost and damaged ones. Yeah. Where does that money go? Not in the government's pocket. Into the publishers and writers pocket.

Congratulations.

Do you pay taxes? Your taxes go toward funding libraries and whatever materials inside them. Yeah. You paid for those books to be in the library. Paid. So money has been given.

I'm sorry if that's still "legal piracy". But at this point, its complete and utter BS.

#216 TheBugNinja

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 02:01 AM

viz and tokyopop can do whatever they want with their property. They paid for the rights. The sickening thing is that people somehow fail to understand this.

Cloud: I don't know you, but I know that you're debating a brick wall. Best to save your logic for those who actually use logic themselves.

Edited by TheBugNinja, 28 July 2010 - 02:05 AM.

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#217 Cloud

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 02:08 AM

QUOTE (TheBugNinja @ Jul 27 2010, 10:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
viz and tokyopop can do whatever they want with their property. They paid for the rights. The sickening thing is that people somehow fail to understand this.

Cloud: I don't know you, but I know that you're debating a brick wall. Best to save your logic for those who actually use logic themselves.


Yeah, you're right, Buggy.

I'm not gonna say anymore on the matter, Aethos. If you want to think that libraries are all pirating books and making money themselves, go right ahead. I'll keep paying my taxes and have my library stock up on good books.

#218 Miss Soupy

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 02:09 AM

I think it's pretty obvious that onemanga is not = to libraries... This idea of 'legal piracy' itself doesn't make any sense, since piracy is unauthorized use of something. Libraries are authorized, onemanga is not. Books in libraries are not free. You need to be a member usually to rent a book or movie, which involves a small fee to begin with. The rest is covered by taxes or donations. If you lose the item, you pay for it. You must share all the items so it is not guaranteed that you will get to use it whenever you wish. Also, you cannot do anything you want with the rented items. Online manga allows you the opportunity to peruse it whenever you wish. It isn't shared in the same way as a book might be because it is always available. You can also download and alter manga however you want, unlike any item at the library which is borrowed. You don't have to wait your turn, you use it however you want, it is always there and is in no way authorized by the government. If it were to be like an actual online library, they would probably allow you to browse manga titles for a subscription like they do with books.

#219 Muffins?

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 02:09 AM

As topic starter I feel obliged to tell you guys to please stop fighting. sweatdrop.gif If you guys really feel you have to continue please take it to the PMs.

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#220 dl316bh

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 02:12 AM

QUOTE (Cloud @ Jul 27 2010, 09:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And don't insult one of my friends. dl316bh was trying to have a civil conversation before you blew up in his face.

Feel free to just call me DL homie.

Thanks for sticking up for me as well.

QUOTE
As topic starter I feel obliged to tell you guys to please stop fighting.

But... but... fighting isn't as much fun without an audience! D:

Or as entertaining, really.

... Or am I the only one getting a kick out of all this?

Highly possible, now that I think on it.

QUOTE
I think it's pretty obvious that onemanga is not = to libraries...

I dunno, I find myself constantly surprised as to what isn't obvious to others on all manner of subjects.

Edited by dl316bh, 28 July 2010 - 02:16 AM.

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