549 replies to this topic

[rocci]

Hate Yahagi? They interviewed together and even put him in the foreground in one of chapter cover.

There're editor who ruin mangaka career or the plot of manga, but yahagi is not one of them. Infact without him naruto will be about ramen selling guy and not a story of ninja. He's that important to naruto series.

[BlackBird19]

I'm really not understanding db84x's stance that Kishi was anti-Yahagi. I mean The love triangle was supposedly Yahagi's idea and Sasuke's increased role was as well, and Kishi ran with that. It stayed in the manga to the very end. To me it just appeared that Kishi's ineptness as a writer came forth once Yahagi left. Like he had no idea how to utilize said ideas on his own, so he just became a massive troll and over emphasized Sasuke's importance ad nauseam. 

 

Although he may have a point, considering the lengths Kishi went to destroy both his story and his characters. Leaving only Hinata fans, Sasuke fans and NH/SS pairing fans who see no them do no wrong. 

 

I mean Yahagi was the one to get Kishi to rework Naruto from a oneshot to a serialization when his other projects weren't working out. He was Kishi's collaborator from the very beginning of the manga and had it not been for Yahagi and his ideas this manga and it's subsequent popularity probably never would have happened. 

 

So maybe Kishi really didn't like Yahagi after all. There was just too much Yahagi in the story during the manga's heyday.

[rocci]

@blackbird
I think the love triangle idea come from kishi himself.
Yahagi only ask/recommend to make a rival and a heroine.
That's how I remember, I could be wrong thought.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Kishi had a path that wouldn't work in the long run, so Yahagi gave plenty of ideas to keep the audience interested and he succeeded. While there are flaws, there weren't cringeworthy moments. After he left, things already felt different, despite Pain Invasion Arc being decent compare anything after.

[BlackBird19]

@ rocci

That's what I meant by triangle. Creating a rival and a heroine for the protagonist was an easy lead into a love triangle for Kishi.  

Edited by BlackBird19, 24 January 2016 - 11:59 AM.

[db84x]

@ BlackBird19

But Kishi already abandon it after part 1, since it not resonate well in reader.  All of us knew that in the end no love triangle at all.  

 

I agree that was Kishi intention, he only saw NS as expendable part of Naruto fandom. About Yahagi hate, maybe he can't bashing Yahagi personally because Yahagi intervention in past.  But he can and already done NS bashing when he got chance since for him NS remind Yahagi and SP intervention on his masterpiece.   

 

I admit too that unspeaking norm in NH and SS is never ever try criticize Kishi or you will became outcast.

 

@ rocci

If we saw Kishi subsequent reaction after ending, I doubt about it. In every time he interviewed about plot, he always insist that he planned NH and SS route and deny he ever planned triangle (he just admit that he only on fence).  Blame countless triangle with almost same plot in anime, that WSJ reader already sick about it and don't want it happen to Naruto.  Kishi himself experience got huge backlash when he on fence, and he admit that he regret with initial Sakura so in the Last he revised it so she now receive less backlash (except form NS fans of course). 

 

@ TouKen4Life3g

Actually even without Yahagi, Naruto still sit on top 5 WSJ ToC and rarely out from it.

Edited by db84x, 24 January 2016 - 05:10 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Ok, I don't see how that goes against any of my claim, let alone where I indicate the rank goes down after he left. Any series outside of One Piece can go up, middle, or even down. Naruto was up many times but it was also in the middle few times. That said does it determine quality? Not necessarily. Like popularity, it doesn't determine the quality of a chapter. Otherwise, I can vouch in saying that One Piece got some ok chapters in compare yet it's number 1 is with all due respect bs. I like OP, but number 1 is not at times with its chapter.

You see, it's just the fan base. Even guys at the ranking thread always talk about certain appearance from fan favorites will make it high, which it has happened. It's popularity first, then mainly for newcomers, it has to be "exciting."

Edited by TouKen4Life3g, 24 January 2016 - 05:03 PM.

[BlackBird19]

@db84x

What masterpiece are you talking about? Naruto is far from a masterpiece or else Kishi wouldn't be constantly doing interviews where he contradicts himself over and over again to explain what the hell happened in his manga.

 

Also since we seem to read this manga very differently, you seem to view things in a completely different light than I do. The love triangle and pairing wars really amped up after pt1 and were trolled heavily in the last half of pt2. Plus, as I explained before, the pairings that became canon happened because of a business decision. A decision made 2/3 to 3/4 into the manga. It wasn't made due to an anti-Yahagi sentiment but because:

1) the loudest segment of the fans were Hinata and Sasuke fans.

2) they wanted the children of Naruto ​and Sasuke to be the stars of their next gen spin-off.

3) they felt Sakura made the most sense to give Sasuke a child therefore paving the way for NH to happen since it was their belief that it would make them the most money.

 

And if you honestly feel NS got bashed by Kishi then you haven't paid attention to his depiction of the canon pairings. I haven't seen a whole lot of positivity there.

[Konoha'sCrimsonFox]

@db84x

What masterpiece are you talking about? Naruto is far from a masterpiece or else Kishi wouldn't be constantly doing interviews where he contradicts himself over and over again to explain what the hell happened in his manga.

 

Also since we seem to read this manga very differently, you seem to view things in a completely different light than I do. The love triangle and pairing wars really amped up after pt1 and were trolled heavily in the last half of pt2. Plus, as I explained before, the pairings that became canon happened because of a business decision. A decision made 2/3 to 3/4 into the manga. It wasn't made due to an anti-Yahagi sentiment but because:

1) the loudest segment of the fans were Hinata and Sasuke fans.

2) they wanted the children of Naruto ​and Sasuke to be the stars of their next gen spin-off.

3) they felt Sakura made the most sense to give Sasuke a child therefore paving the way for NH to happen since it was their belief that it would make them the most money.

 

And if you honestly feel NS got bashed by Kishi then you haven't paid attention to his depiction of the canon pairings. I haven't seen a whole lot of positivity there.

 

Also that they didn't want to give readers any ideas not even 1% chance that Sakura is in love with Naruto. That was why she was paired up with Sasuke. 

[Bail o' Lies]

How is kishi anti yahagi? It was yahagi's advice that help make Naruto the success that it was during his term as editor and beyond...until the ending. and IF you believe kishi tell the 100% truth in every interview since you seem to believe he is (since that's how your justifying nH)...then for what i can recall during his interview along side yahagi. Then kishi isn't anti yahagi but is madly in love with him.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 25 January 2016 - 08:45 AM.

[db84x]

@ rocci

Kishi already overwrite it as child crush, love triangle already end in hospital scene.  After manga ending, Kishi clearly show his inner shipper.  

 

@ BlackBird19

Masterpice = cash cow, its still Shuheisa cash cow until now.  We talk about commercial manga industry here, not fanfiction or indie manga. 

 

@ TouKen4Life3g

ToC is everything in WSJ even it not perfect but it work.

 

@ Bail o' Lies

Last time it happen in 2010, a lot of thing happen until ending in 2015.  Maybe he not hate Yahagi personally but he clearly hate his love triangle idea.  Because the idea, Kishi admit that he spank hard by WSJ reader.

Edited by db84x, 25 January 2016 - 01:17 PM.

[TouKen4Life3g]

We all know that. It's just our argument is about writing quality, not ToC means the quality is good. For big name series, it's either because it's too popular, it hit the fans' wet dreams, or mixed of both. It can tell you about writing quality but for big names, you might as well forget it.

[rocci]

It doesn't end with the hospital scene. It end in chapter 699.
Kishi retcon it as thing for scumbag hero.
Yes, his innership is narutoxsasuke.

Masterpiece =/= cash cow.
Masterpiece is about quality and not quantity. And yes I'm talking about manga industry. And as a manga reader, naruto is not and will never be a master piece in manga industry. It just a popular manga.

ToC is not everything for jump, what is everything for them is manga selling. Heck they treat the anime adaptation as manga promotion.

He doesn't hate yahagi. Show me the prove.
If kishi hate it, he will not drag it till the end of manga.
Anyway from 2010 till 2015, naruto goes from decent to trash.

@touken
Naruto is popular, but it never a masterpiece nor have an impact like onepiece or dragon ball. Naruto is a case of lucky shot.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Naruto and Bleach are lucky shots.

[BlackBird19]

@db84x

Then you should've called it his money maker rather than his masterpiece. A masterpiece is something that is remembered fondly well after it was created and ended. Meaning you could end it and it would still sell because of it's quality. Naruto is now just as infamous as it is famous. And yes, shueisha is still making money off of Naruto but it's milk money. In an industry that needs all the money it can get, they're milking the Naruto franchise for all it's worth.

[rocci]

Naruto and Bleach are lucky shots.

Yes, you're right.

[Bail o' Lies]

 

@ rocci

Kishi already overwrite it as child crush, love triangle already end in hospital scene.  After manga ending, Kishi clearly show his inner shipper.  

...His inner shipper is utter indifference towards any of the end pairings?

 

"Masterpice = cash cow, its still Shuheisa cash cow until now." 

 

http://www.merriam-w...ary/masterpiece

 

: a great book, painting, piece of music, movie, etc.; also : the best book, painting, piece of music, movie, etc., by a particular person

 

: something done with great skill

 

:  a work done with extraordinary skill; especially :  a supreme intellectual or artistic achievement

 

:  a piece of work presented to a medieval guild as evidence of qualification for the rank of master

 

http://www.merriam-w...ionary/cash cow

 

: someone or something that makes a lot of money for a business, organization, etc.

 

:  a consistently profitable business, property, or product whose profits are used to finance a company's investments in other areas

 

:  one regarded or exploited as a reliable source of money

 

You have a very low standard for art. Don't you. And once again Naruto continuing is far more important to Studio Pierrot than it is to Shueisa. Since Shueisa has many other stories for them to profit off of while SP only has Naruto at the moment that is bringing any real money. 

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 25 January 2016 - 03:22 PM.

[Nostradamus]

Naruto=Masterpiece

 

[Bail o' Lies]

Naruto and Bleach are lucky shots.

More or less. The only one of the big three that had any planning was one piece. bleach was Kubo's attempt at another manga after his last one bomb. While Naruto was kishi's lucky break because he had yahagi as his editor helping him when he was utterly clueless of what do to with his first manga.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 25 January 2016 - 03:12 PM.

[Bail o' Lies]

Has kishi ever even called Naruto his masterpiece?

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 25 January 2016 - 03:15 PM.