4869 replies to this topic

[Froot]

Hm. Can someone who frequents NF give me a status report on the NS/NH/SS debate thread? Like, who seems to be winning?

Because recently - and it might just be me - I've noticed that the NH/SS fans are starting to quiet down. Their arguments are getting old and are no longer very relevent. NH/SS used to get the bulk of the praise, but now I'm starting to see a transition to NS. Our moments and developments just keep on coming.

Now, I'm not saying that NH/SS is dead and NS is basically a guarantee, but I believe the manga is conveying that itself, and I'm simply interpreting it in as objective a way as I can.

It just so happens that NS seems the most canon at this point

[Miss Soupy]

Right now there isn't really much to post there. There are enough NS supporters that can easily refute whatever is thrown in there (a lot of what ends up being said by the NH camp is quite easy to prove wrong). The smarter fans are silent waiting for the up-coming talks, I think. But it's quite easy to see as far as proof goes, NaruSaku is leagues ahead of the others (thanks largely to the hug, Naruto confession, and Sakura realization).

[Froot]

Right now there isn't really much to post there. There are enough NS supporters that can easily refute whatever is thrown in there (a lot of what ends up being said by the NH camp is quite easy to prove wrong). The smarter fans are silent waiting for the up-coming talks, I think. But it's quite easy to see as far as proof goes, NaruSaku is leagues ahead of the others (thanks largely to the hug, Naruto confession, and Sakura realization).

That's good to hear. It's not like I don't have faith in the NS debators. I was just wondering if it was a war-zone yet. But I skimmed through the thread once; very proud of what I saw. They're certainly holding it down over there.

But I wonder what exactly the NH fans are starting to say?

[Miss Soupy]

All they can safely say is that Sakura might not exactly be in love with Naruto, and Naruto could possibly fall out of love with her and fall in love with Hinata XD

[Froot]

All they can safely say is that Sakura might not exactly be in love with Naruto, and Naruto could possibly fall out of love with her and fall in love with Hinata XD

Because Naruto's just such a flake and can't make up his mind. Because he's desperate enough to take whatever he can get, even if he's barely spoken to her. She confessed. Why not? It's not like HE'S IN LOVE WITH ANYONE ELSE.

I think the whole ''Sakura doesn't love Naruto'' thing is the most plausible argument. But that's... Really not saying much.

After all these chapters, I'd actually expect Kishi not to make any super huge NaruSaku confirmations, at least not as huge as, say, a kiss would be. I believe he's drawing it out, real slow and painful, like any good author would. Not just go ''Time to change gears... CONFESSION! Psych! All that development was to throw you all off!'' or ''Hm... I change my mind. CONFESSION! And there you have it; NaruHina.'' like some NH fans are possibly hoping for.

I mean, why would he waste his precious time building up NaruSaku to take a wrecking ball to it suddenly? Give the man some credit.

He could have used all those NaruSaku manga panels to build NaruHina up instead of furthering NaruSaku. That's what makes sense, anyways. I just hope Kishi sees it too.

If, after all that development for NaruSaku, Kishi does a totally left field NaruHina ending, I'll just 'til the day I die.

Edited by Froot, 19 October 2009 - 04:21 AM.

[MelisaArtemis]

Well... granted that Sakura NEVER mention that she love Naruto but I think with how she acts all this time, having that argument just doesn't cut it. Action speak louder than words although confession DO makes it official but its what you do for the person that makes the mark. This is another difference between Sakura and Hinata when it comes to their treatment to Naruto.

Hinata does absolutely NOTHING for Naruto until her confession, its like someone you don't know suddenly comes up to you and confess, you'll feel totally indifferent to it if not totally going "WTF? What the hell do you know about me? We don't even talk with each other much."

On the other hand, Sakura NEVER confess but she has done LOTS of things for him, supporting him, encouraging (Soundly I might add), protecting him, those who says that those actions means nothing are simply in denial or just totally dense.

[Strangelove]

Recently a long time ago, NS only had foot soldiers, but now we have foot soldiers, tanks, and missile launchers. If the talk goes right, we have air support xD

[Froot]

Well... granted that Sakura NEVER mention that she love Naruto but I think with how she acts all this time, having that argument just doesn't cut it. Action speak louder than words although confession DO makes it official but its what you do for the person that makes the mark. This is another difference between Sakura and Hinata when it comes to their treatment to Naruto.

I'm sorry, but I'd have to dosagree with you there. A confession does not make it official. What would make it official would be for Naruto to reciprocate her feelings, and while I don't want to speak too soon, given the evidence in the manga, it doesn't seem very likely that he will. And while I really can't bring SasuSaku into this, since SS/NH go hand in hand, Sakura confessed, but all Sasuke did was dump her on a cold bench. Now, I'm not saying SasuSaku is guaranteed not to happen, just that it's very, very unlikely. A confession does not make up for a lifetime of no interaction.

On the other hand, Sakura NEVER confess but she has done LOTS of things for him, supporting him, encouraging (Soundly I might add), protecting him, those who says that those actions means nothing are simply in denial or just totally dense.

Sakura doesn't need to confess. She's done enough already. So you're right about that.

Recently a long time ago, NS only had foot soldiers, but now we have foot soldiers, tanks, and missile launchers. If the talk goes right, we have air support xD

NaruSaku's come a long way!

[Strangelove]

Sakura still has to take the initiative though, because when it comes to women, all Naruto ever learned about it is from Jiraiya, and his books and that's not really good.

Edited by Strangelove, 19 October 2009 - 12:54 PM.

[Miss Soupy]

Because Naruto's just such a flake and can't make up his mind. Because he's desperate enough to take whatever he can get, even if he's barely spoken to her. She confessed. Why not? It's not like HE'S IN LOVE WITH ANYONE ELSE.

Well, hopefully they aren't trying to argue desperation, because that just doesn't work. Honestly, it would take a lot of development for it to work at all, but it is a fair argument that given time and development, it could possibly work. But that makes it possible, not plausible.

I think the whole ''Sakura doesn't love Naruto'' thing is the most plausible argument. But that's... Really not saying much.

Yeah, if this turns out to be true (which I highly doubt), but IF, my only remaining hope is that Sakura doesn't end up with Sasuke. That would just kill her character =_= I'd honestly rather have her not be in any pairing than have her with Sasuke.

After all these chapters, I'd actually expect Kishi not to make any super huge NaruSaku confirmations, at least not as huge as, say, a kiss would be. I believe he's drawing it out, real slow and painful, like any good author would. Not just go ''Time to change gears... CONFESSION! Psych! All that development was to throw you all off!'' or ''Hm... I change my mind. CONFESSION! And there you have it; NaruHina.'' like some NH fans are possibly hoping for.

Especially since confession = pairing death? XD Yeah, I agree, the man is gonna drag this out as long as he can. He's not gonna confirm anything but have a gradual decrease in likelihood for the ones he doesn't want to happen. (Which is what we are seeing)

I mean, why would he waste his precious time building up NaruSaku to take a wrecking ball to it suddenly? Give the man some credit.

He could have used all those NaruSaku manga panels to build NaruHina up instead of furthering NaruSaku. That's what makes sense, anyways. I just hope Kishi sees it too.

He has to make Hinata have huge scenes, far apart from each other, to give her any ground to stand on (since the manga is littered with little NS scenes instead).

If, after all that development for NaruSaku, Kishi does a totally left field NaruHina ending, I'll just 'til the day I die.

I would caution NS fans not to get a big head even if we are gifted with so much proof. Kishi could do whatever the heck he wanted to do. In the end he could set up something totally different than what we expect. And the truth is, NH isn't dead yet, not with the confession so recent and fresh in the manga. SS I think has one foot in the grave, but I'm not confident enough to say even it is dead and gone for good either (though in my opinion the least likely of the 3).

[Froot]

Well, hopefully they aren't trying to argue desperation, because that just doesn't work. Honestly, it would take a lot of development for it to work at all, but it is a fair argument that given time and development, it could possibly work. But that makes it possible, not plausible.

He has to make Hinata have huge scenes, far apart from each other, to give her any ground to stand on (since the manga is littered with little NS scenes instead).

Right. He'd have to turn the whole manga around and suddenly make Hinata a main character and make Sakura a bad character, and make Naruto suddenly fall in love with Hinata. I mean, that's the only way it would make sense. But like you said, it's his manga, and he doesn't have to make sense.

Yeah, if this turns out to be true (which I highly doubt), but IF, my only remaining hope is that Sakura doesn't end up with Sasuke. That would just kill her character =_= I'd honestly rather have her not be in any pairing than have her with Sasuke.

I agree. Vehemently. Sakura's too good to be downgraded to Sasuke fangirl again, or at least downgraded to someone who puts up with his bullsh** at this point. Though I'd prefer she didn't end up alone, I'd rather her be alone than with Sasuke.

I would caution NS fans not to get a big head even if we are gifted with so much proof. Kishi could do whatever the heck he wanted to do. In the end he could set up something totally different than what we expect. And the truth is, NH isn't dead yet, not with the confession so recent and fresh in the manga. SS I think has one foot in the grave, but I'm not confident enough to say even it is dead and gone for good either (though in my opinion the least likely of the 3).

You're right. I just get so caught up sometimes. Funny, though, usually, I try not to think that way. I'll still if NaruSaku doesn't happpen but only because I saw that it made the most sense.

Edited by Froot, 19 October 2009 - 02:32 PM.

[KittenLou]

Frankly, I'm surprised there are still NH fans trying to refute anything that a NaruSaku debater would throw back in their face (particularly the more astounding users). Their mindset is "now that Hinata has confessed, Naruto has to confront her and talk things over with her". The problem with that is Naruto has already been confirmed to still be in love with Sakura, so what on earth would make them think a discussion between Naruto and Hinata about her feelings for him would change their relationship? Granted, it has remained static for about 400 chapters, and it's likely to develop into a deeper mutual understanding between them, but... that's all I can imagine being said. Hinata saw Sakura hug Naruto and saw the look on his face - everyone did; clearly it was something positive for the NaruSaku dynamic, otherwise we would have seen slightly altered reactions from the audience witnessing the physical display.

Which is why I found it so ironic that the NaruHina fandom laughed when Hinata smiled - as if there were any competition between her and Sakura for Naruto's attention. Because the first thing a sweet, considerate girl like Hinata would should something like that happen again is tear Naruto and Sakura apart, right? Wrong. Naruto is in love with Sakura. Hinata has been confirmed to accept these feelings, and until he can manage to overcome his love for Sakura, Naruto and Hinata will likely never become anything more.

[Derock]

Frankly, I'm surprised there are still NH fans trying to refute anything that a NaruSaku debater would throw back in their face (particularly the more astounding users). Their mindset is "now that Hinata has confessed, Naruto has to confront her and talk things over with her". The problem with that is Naruto has already been confirmed to still be in love with Sakura, so what on earth would make them think a discussion between Naruto and Hinata about her feelings for him would change their relationship? Granted, it has remained static for about 400 chapters, and it's likely to develop into a deeper mutual understanding between them, but... that's all I can imagine being said. Hinata saw Sakura hug Naruto and saw the look on his face - everyone did; clearly it was something positive for the NaruSaku dynamic, otherwise we would have seen slightly altered reactions from the audience witnessing the physical display.

Which is why I found it so ironic that the NaruHina fandom laughed when Hinata smiled - as if there were any competition between her and Sakura for Naruto's attention. Because the first thing a sweet, considerate girl like Hinata would should something like that happen again is tear Naruto and Sakura apart, right? Wrong. Naruto is in love with Sakura. Hinata has been confirmed to accept these feelings, and until he can manage to overcome his love for Sakura, Naruto and Hinata will likely never become anything more.

Actually, they still on that little snippet Sakura had said before the hug was initiated. This quote right here:

"Hinata loves Naruto?" (On the page where Sakura was healing Hinata).

But still, the mindset of "Hinata confessed, now Naruto must confront her and talk" which is now null and void, is still the issue.

[catsi563]

Yes, I too noted a shift in my post. However you associate it to Sakura realizing she loves Naruto, which as I am still wondering what proof you have of the hospital scene showing this is true.

Let me offer it then NExt time well do it together.

this to me is the key wording. Its not next time we'll get sasuke together, its next time WE"LL do it together.

she specifically says we will do this together. shes telling him that enxty time he wont be alone he wont have to shoudler it all on his own. Its not the end but only the beginning fro the two fo them. its a moment when she raises up and gathers her own strength and courage in a moment thats jsut as compelling and powerful as Hinatas confession with less Kyubi chakra added.

but the moments jsut prior to it when shes sitting on the edge of despair and he brings her back with that promise,. that small smile is the key isntance when her heart shifts.

Edit: Let me add in a small change. the disagreement seems to be in the wording. Its not that she realzies she is in love with Naruto at that moment. No not at all. youa re correct shes still to hurt by Sasukes leavinga t that moment.

it is though the moment she falls in love with him. she simply doesnt realize it at that moment. due to that pain. this is a very plausible scenario given what happens in the scene and all that proceeded it.

My own opinion would be that it was far too soon for Sakura to have a sudden shift in love interest. Sasuke had just left, and whether you believe she really loved him or not, his leaving was a fresh wound to both her and Naruto

I do agree with you to an extent. thats why she doesnt realize it at that moment. shes still hurting from Sasukes leaving and Narutos pain as well. It is a moment we can both agree that it is a powerful moment in ehr heart in either way. But its still there to me as a moment when she falls out of love with sasuke and in love with Naruto. she jsut hasnt acknowledged it at that point.

Also, Sakura has no problem going on very dangerous missions to receive information about Sasuke in part II. It seems she is still quite focused on saving him

Absolutley correct but the reason is again the promise she made to naruto that they would go together, not soley for herself. she is focused on naruto from the very beginning and continues to be so. Notice that up to the point where he goes KN4 is one fo the few times she actively mentions Sasuke at all in part 2. the rest fo the time her focus is on Naruto.

it is also the first time she tries to get him to forsake the POAL or at least try and shifts it to ehrself youa re correct in that.

In other words, the hospital scene made it Naruto = Sasuke. The K4 scene made it Naruto > Sasuke. The gradual progression

I disagree only slightly with this. I think its more like that the KN4 scene is the moment she actively acknowledges out loud that Naruto is the priority over sasuke. with the hospital scene she acknowledges the need to get stronger to go with naruto next time. with KN4 she shouts the desire to take the pain for him.

as to In your arms. yes it is a fan fic one of my first.

In your arms

added the link it explains my own feelings and if the way things in the manga are any indication it may actually be canon compliant a long ways into the future with only minor need for changes ((hwich ill be aming when i fix some fo the grammar in it)) LOL

Edited by catsi563, 19 October 2009 - 05:22 PM.

[Miss Soupy]

Edit: Let me add in a small change. the disagreement seems to be in the wording. Its not that she realzies she is in love with Naruto at that moment. No not at all. youa re correct shes still to hurt by Sasukes leavinga t that moment.

it is though the moment she falls in love with him. she simply doesnt realize it at that moment. due to that pain. this is a very plausible scenario given what happens in the scene and all that proceeded it.

This whole 'unconscious' feeling is all very nice, but there is no proof of it at that point. You can hold this as your personal opinion, but it is not fact. It's sort of like when NH fans say Naruto's line of, 'I really like someone like you' , means Naruto holds some secret unconscious love of Hinata =_= You are looking at a moment and trying to see it more romantically than the author probably implied it to be. Sakura telling Naruto they will work together is not an implication that she has unconsciously fallen in love with him. It IS an implication that she cares a great deal for him and wants to be helpful as well.

I do agree with you to an extent. thats why she doesnt realize it at that moment. shes still hurting from Sasukes leaving and Narutos pain as well. It is a moment we can both agree that it is a powerful moment in ehr heart in either way. But its still there to me as a moment when she falls out of love with sasuke and in love with Naruto. she jsut hasnt acknowledged it at that point.

You are quite free to believe this. However, I would recommend you don't try to actively debate this point seriously, as there isn't much proof of it. (Greatly up to interpretation)

Absolutley correct but the reason is again the promise she made to naruto that they would go together, not soley for herself. she is focused on naruto from the very beginning and continues to be so. Notice that up to the point where he goes KN4 is one fo the few times she actively mentions Sasuke at all in part 2. the rest fo the time her focus is on Naruto.

it is also the first time she tries to get him to forsake the POAL or at least try and shifts it to ehrself youa re correct in that.

What I meant to show was, if Sakura had been in love with Naruto at the start of Part II, as you are claiming she unconsciously fell in love at the end of part I, then why would Sakura put Naruto through everything still? If she loves Naruto, why wouldn't she seriously talk to him about that promise, apologize, and revoke it? Whether or not she actively mentions Sasuke, they are actively looking for him a good chunk of part II. Actions speak louder, and Sakura is still acting like she holds some dedication to Sasuke. (note that I am talking about the beginning of part II, up to the K4 scene)

I disagree only slightly with this. I think its more like that the KN4 scene is the moment she actively acknowledges out loud that Naruto is the priority over sasuke. with the hospital scene she acknowledges the need to get stronger to go with naruto next time. with KN4 she shouts the desire to take the pain for him.

This seems to be exactly what I was saying, unless you mean the hospital scene made Naruto > Sasuke already? If that is what you mean, then I would have to ask how you account for Sakura never willingly wanting to take away the promise before this scene? Even if she was only unconsciously in love, those feelings should have affected her actions. She seemed fine allowing it to remain up until this point, when Naruto goes overboard and she panics. She is, only then, filled with enough regret to revoke the promise and begins to place Naruto foremost in her heart.

as to In your arms. yes it is a fan fic one of my first.

In your arms

added the link it explains my own feelings and if the way things in the manga are any indication it may actually be canon compliant a long ways into the future with only minor need for changes ((hwich ill be aming when i fix some fo the grammar in it)) LOL

Ah I see XD Though unfortunately, a fanfic isn't exactly the best way to argue canon ^^;

Edited by Miss Soupy, 19 October 2009 - 05:51 PM.

[RedDelicious]

This whole 'unconscious' feeling is all very nice, but there is no proof of it at that point. You can hold this as your personal opinion, but it is not fact. It's sort of like when NH fans say...

You have a point.
But there are also NH fans who would claim it is personal opinion, even if Kishimoto hit them in the face with a NaruSaku cannon. (Not saying it has been done, but denial level is pretty high.)

What I meant to show was, if Sakura had been in love with Naruto at the start of Part II, as you are claiming she unconsciously fell in love at the end of part I, then why would Sakura put Naruto through everything still? If she loves Naruto, why wouldn't she seriously talk to him about that promise, apologize, and revoke it? Whether or not she actively mentions Sasuke, they are actively looking for him a good chunk of part II. Actions speak louder, and Sakura is still acting like she holds some dedication to Sasuke. (note that I am talking about the beginning of part II, up to the K4 scene)

Sakura's actions are that she is trying to work with Naruto to fulfill the POAL. It is personal opinion that she is acting like this due to "some dedication to Sasuke". That is a part of it, but it could be the stronger motivation is that she thinks that this is important to Naruto (which it is).

As for the promise itself, Sakura tried to ease Naruto out of it during the hospital scene. "Why're you apologizing?" "It's alright, Naruto..." On a different thread, someone pointed out that if she revoked the promise, especially after Naruto re-emphasized that keeping his word is his shinobi way, would have been like a slap in the face.

Also, you ask "why would Sakura put Naruto through everything still?" What exactly does she know? As the readers, we know the extreme lengths that Naruto is going for the promise. But how would Sakura know, when Naruto hides it and only shows her smiles and good things? That's why Sai's comments hit so hard, she had no idea what was going on when she wasn't around. I've predicted (and still believe) that Sakura is going to raise this issue (Naruto withholding things from her) in the upcoming talk.

[catsi563]

true enough id never use a fan fic to argue canon. though mine tend to run closer to canon then most =>_o=

PS: id love your opinion on the story and my others when you have the time. LOL

As to the unconsious feeling I dont think it is. my point is based on what she said. we all agree that Kishimoto uses very specific wording in a very specific context. and thats what I base my own hypothesis off of.

too many naruhina fans tend to read to deeply into the "I like people like you" and the confession. they tend to "read selectively" or read to deeply into it, and apply meaning to the scene that isnt intended. Im not doing that.

If she was still hung up on Sasuke in that scene she would ahve said very specifically that "Next time we'll go after Sasuke together." not "Next time we'll do it together."

Like Yamatos "the strength of your feelings for Naruto" speech it is a very specific wording done in a very specific context.

I grant that it can be considered somewhat speculative but what moment in the manga isnt open to such speculation? In this case we'll simply agree to disagree.

I dont tend to debate that particular point because as you say as of this moment there is no direct evidence to support the supposition beyond my interpretation of Sakuras words to naruto and her expression of determination at the moment and subsequent events that follow it. But of course all of those have some level of interpretation untill such time as its confirmed via the manga. Its simply my opinion and interpretation base don evidence Ive seen.

What I meant to show was, if Sakura had been in love with Naruto at the start of Part II, as you are claiming she unconsciously fell in love at the end of part I, then why would Sakura put Naruto through everything still? If she loves Naruto,

Now here i will call you on this one. this is a common naruhina, anti narusaku argument. Why would she do this why would she do that.

you forget that Naruto is not a sakura hand puppet. he does things for himself and is driven by his own needs as well as the promise. Sure Sakura can try and keep him in line from time to time but he is just as driven to bring Sasuke back for himself as he his for her.

Still we are in agreement that she holds some dedication to Sasuke. this much is true. I still beleive firmly that she has a need to confront Sasuke about the bench scene in chapter 3 before she can mvoe on and actively acknowledge Narutos feelinsgs and pursue a relationship.

as to the hospital scene think of it in this image. if we assume a set of balances is Sakuras heart. on one dish is sasuke and the other naruto.

at the ebginning fo aprt 1 its heavilly weighted towards sasuke and becomes even more so after the bench scene. Slowly the balance shifts through the part 1 untill sasuke only has a slight edge over Naruto due to his actions. the hospital scene is the moment when the balance shifts ever so slightly to naruto. it doesnt have to be a direct acknowledgement or even this bright explosions in the sky moment where they suddenly fling eahc other into their arms to acknowledge it.

instead it is a subtle moment like all their moments a simple moment where her statement has the biggest weight and tells the most with only a few words.

Edited by catsi563, 19 October 2009 - 07:50 PM.

[Freakazoid]

I wanted to ask how everyone feels about the 'Under the same sky' argument.

It is clearly shown on a chapter cover, and there are 2 manga scenes that can be used as further foreshadowing for this. Plus, we have a chapter cover of Hinata looking towards the sun, and that goes along with the sky thing.

It looks to be pretty clear foreshadowing.

I believe in NaruSaku, but it's slightly odd to have that type of thing if Kishimoto is indeed looking at NS to become canon.

[RedDelicious]

what episode is chapter 144 in the anime >.> kinda wanna see that scene

Chapter 83. Like most of the anime, some parts are close to the manga, some is filler.
I like the manga version better. On page 7, Sakura looks surprised, then disappointed,
then smiles. In the anime, they went straight from surprised to the smile, which I think
drains some of the (NaruSaku-interpreted) emotion.

[TwilightLink20xx]

I wanted to ask how everyone feels about the 'Under the same sky' argument.

It is clearly shown on a chapter cover, and there are 2 manga scenes that can be used as further foreshadowing for this. Plus, we have a chapter cover of Hinata looking towards the sun, and that goes along with the sky thing.

It looks to be pretty clear foreshadowing.

I believe in NaruSaku, but it's slightly odd to have that type of thing if Kishimoto is indeed looking at NS to become canon.

You mind showing me the "sky" material? I don't recall what you're talking about.

As for the "golden light", it's just a cover, there's no reason to believe that it means anything. Honestly, when you look at a few of the early covers Kishi did, some of them probably were foreshadowing, while others were done because that's what he felt like doing. Let me say this, Sakura hasn't gotten an axe yet, so until that happens, I wouldn't expect illustrations that aren't in the manga to mean that much. A cover's a cover, and side-text typically gets the axe when they publish it in the volumes. It's simple as this, I heavily doubt it holds any weight.