31746 replies to this topic

[RyohkiFan]

Well naruto is weak ass before war arc and romance deal in the last two chapter and a movie.

Naruto was worse compare to SAO...it took a bit for them to actually be a couple IN story

[TouKen4Life3g]

Well, what if naruto is op since beginning to the point he would kitten slap orochimaru and NS canon in chunin exam arc.

Will it has the same reaction like Sao?

That really depends. SAO lasted so short. Short as War Arc. The same length of Naruto never ending power up spree within one 4 years arc while SAO is two seasons length. So it's practically the same. However, if Naruto was OP since beginning, that would be much worse.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

Sinon is terrible to me too, she's like those other girls falling for Kirito...I got a list why I am disappointed with her(along with the other girls)...I'm sorry

Your avi...is that Suga and who? :o

Yeah, as I said before, that's my primary complaint with the GGO arc; Sinon looked like another interesting female who had her own demons she wanted to overcome, and it was also cool that she looked like she'd be the one teaching Kirito the ropes sort of like how Kirito taught Klein early on in SAO. But then, not only is Kirito continued to be made OP in a game he has no experience with (and yet making his SAO skills completely overcome what the game is largely about, whereas ALO was pretty similar minus the flying abilities), they had to go and asspull some "PTSD" crap for Kirito from all the way back in SAO which completely overshadows Sinon's own, IMO, far more real trauma. Then, Sinon is reduced to (another) "weak", clingy female who "needs" Kirito so she "can be strong", when she was plenty "strong" already, immediately after Kirito mentions his own PTSD stuff that should've been addressed in ALO or latter SAO (which he showed no previous signs of simply because of "not remembering") rather than completely usurping another character's development.

[Nar123]

@bryion & nar123
Thanks.

It seem like making the mc op and canon romance rush is not a good writing.
What happen if that happen in naruto too?

 

IMO, as long as you play it right there is no problem with MC being OP as long as he is an interesting dimensional character ( there is the matter  though that with weak MC's, the so called "underdogs", it's easier to make the audience symphatize)

 

However as for romance, if you're going to develop one in the story I always felt it's better if it's a slow burn. This doesn't essentially means though that the romance should only ever have closure in the end of the story

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

@bryion & nar123
Thanks.

It seem like making the mc op and canon romance rush is not a good writing.
What happen if that happen in naruto too?

 

I think it kinda did.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

 

IMO, as long as you play it right there is no problem with MC being OP as long as he is an interesting dimensional character ( there is the matter  though that with weak MC's, the so called "underdogs", it's easier to make the audience symphatize)

 

However as for romance, if you're going to develop one in the story I always felt it's better if it's a slow burn. This doesn't essentially means though that the romance should only ever have closure in the end of the story

Yeah, unfortunately, it can be tricky to make a "good" OP character, especially in a more serious anime.

Someone like Izayoi from Mondaiji-tachi ga Isekai Kara Kuru Sō Desu yo? (Problem Children are Coming from Another World, aren't they?) is a fun OP MC. Same with Sora and Shiro ("Blank") in No Game, No Life, but both animes are quite over the top as well, so it's pretty easy to ignore the OPness. In something more dramatic like SAO though, Kirito's OPness really stands out, but other than that, not much is interesting. They try to use the whole PTSD thing in the GGO arc to make him seem more "human", but as I keep saying, it feels really forced (both in general and as a way to have a convenient "understanding" between him and Sinon) and it only takes away from Sinon's own development.


As for "underdogs", also unfortunately, it feels like the term is just slapped onto any "weak-at-the-start" MC these days.

It is also a bit hypocritical since so many "weak" MCs also tend to turn out to be "special" in some way; having some sort of "special" power/ability (born with, awakened, and/or given because of being "chosen" and/or through "will" and/or something), discovering they're part of some uber-powerful bloodline, and so on, so they manage to quickly catch up and surpass people who, even if they're total kitten and/or geniuses and such that we may not like personality-wise, still (usually) got to where they were through their own hard work. It feels rare these days for an underdog MC to be truly "weak" and truly be able to work their way up to surpass those at the top and prove naysayers wrong without such crutches boosting them up. It makes it feel like any talk of "will", "drive", "guts", "hard work", etc. are just empty words used to cover up insecurities viewers may have and makes them overlook that even the so-called "underdog" MC is actually also "special", "privileged", etc. in one or more ways.

 

Take Bell Cranel in Dungeon ni Deai o Motomeru no wa Machigatteiru Darō ka (Is It Wrong to Try to Pick Up Girls in a Dungeon?) (airing now). I haven't read the novels, so only going on the anime so far and what I read online. He seems like like a typical "weak underdog" MC, genuinely wanting to work hard and become stronger. My problem with him, though, comes from the fact that he gains extremely rare abilities that are basically like cheat codes. Whether he's born with them or not, I'm not sure, but it really kills the "underdog MC" label...

"Single-Minded Pursuit allows the accelerated growth of the user and is in effect as long as the feelings of the user are unchanged. The strength of the skill's effects is directly proportional to the strength of the user's feelings"

 

"Hero's Wish: The right to charge for an action. Light gathers into Bell's hand -Though, because he was concentrating on his hand at the time, it is unknown whether or not he can focus it to other parts of the body- based on his feelings of wanting to be a Hero. Demonstrated in volume 4 during his brief battle with the infant dragon, when he fired off an Argonaut charged Fire Bolt. Another rare ability."

"Luck: Luck will become better. It is thought to be something like Divine Protection. Eina's hypothesis is that it may be an extraordinary talisman that unknowingly activates its effect; and may be borrowing the Goddess' power to protect the user. An example of Bell's Luck ability in use, may have occurred when he and his party of consisting of Welf and Lili, encountered the Infant Dragon; which is said to be an extremely rare and "lucky" encounter. Also a rare ability."

 

...and it's only through things like that that he manages to become the fastest growing adventurer in the land, advancing from Level 1 to Level 2 in a mere month and a half when it took Aiz Wallenstein, one of the strongest adventurers and love interest, three years. And while the abilities may not be unique, as far as I've read, there has never been mention or encounter of any other adventurer having any of these abilities either. It also doesn't help when such MCs like Bell tend to get special honors/privileges, like his goddess Hestia getting the goddess Hephaestus to personally create a weapon specifically for Bell, something that, even just having someone merely working for Hephaestus creating one, would've cost a fortune for anyone else, and something she also rarely does herself.

Sadly, as we well know by now, Naruto had long since fallen into this area too, as early as the Land of Waves arc even, when he first unleashes Kurama's chakra when he otherwise stood no chance against Haku. Oftentimes, Naruto's opponents that he is empathetic to still disagree with his views, so it comes down to Naruto having to defeat them in order to "prove" his view is correct, but how often has Naruto actually defeated an opponent with his own strength without Kurama's chakra playing some sort of role ("crutch")? Kiba in the Chunin Exams and Kakuzu are really all I can immediately think of (and even then, Naruto really just won on pure dumb luck with his farting in Kiba's face, and it required a "moment of stupidity" on Kakuzu's part simply to allow Naruto to land the half-finished Rasenshuriken). Every other battle seems to have involved Kurama's chakra in some way when Naruto would have otherwise lost or even died. And that's before the whole "Child of Prophecy", uber-Uzumaki and Senju bloodline connections, and Ashura chakra reincarnation crap.

[ichigo500]

 

IMO, as long as you play it right there is no problem with MC being OP as long as he is an interesting dimensional character ( there is the matter  though that with weak MC's, the so called "underdogs", it's easier to make the audience symphatize)

 

However as for romance, if you're going to develop one in the story I always felt it's better if it's a slow burn. This doesn't essentially means though that the romance should only ever have closure in the end of the story

Totally agree with you ! Look at Berserk, it has both things...and still, it is an "almost perfect" manga ! You can see the difference between good authors and terrible ones...

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Totally agree with you ! Look at Berserk, it has both things...and still, it is an "almost perfect" manga ! You can see the difference between good authors and terrible ones...

 

Yeah, plus we also got series where a character can be powerful, yet as you learn about them, you feel for them and sympathize, like Kenshin in Rurouni Kenshin. You see him struggling with his past as well as the mistakes he made as he tries to forge a new path.

[rocci]

@halfdemoninuyasha
You can't seperate kurama power with naruto power. It's his own power just like all other jinchuriki. It's up to him how to harness it.

By design, naruto is potentially the strongest ninja because of his big chakra level even without Kyubi. But the problem naruto doesn't has enough arsenal to capitalize that big chakra. Kb and rasengan benefit on naruto big chakra level. But he doesn't have mid to long range jutsu. Because it will make sasuke weak thus making naruto vs sasuke unbalance to naruto.

And there's no problem that mc have hidden power or something like that because it will make them interesting, after all this is battle manga. Ofc there's a time when mc is weak but beat stronger opponent but it sometime doesn't work.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

@halfdemoninuyasha
You can't seperate kurama power with naruto power. It's his own power just like all other jinchuriki. It's up to him how to harness it.

By design, naruto is potentially the strongest ninja because of his big chakra level even without Kyubi. But the problem naruto doesn't has enough arsenal to capitalize that big chakra. Kb and rasengan benefit on naruto big chakra level. But he doesn't have mid to long range jutsu. Because it will make sasuke weak thus making naruto vs sasuke unbalance to naruto.

And there's no problem that mc have hidden power or something like that because it will make them interesting, after all this is battle manga. Ofc there's a time when mc is weak but beat stronger opponent but it sometime doesn't work.

 

Actually, yes you can separate them.

Kurama is sentient chakra with his own mind and individuality. The only reason Naruto was able to use the chakra initially was because of the workings of the seal (which seems to have been forgotten about now), but most of the time, it was simply because Kurama chose to either let Naruto use it or because he forces it onto Naruto for entertainment. Otherwise, it required an entire ritual for Naruto to forcefully take Kurama's chakra and lock away the rest of him before, again, Kurama chose to work together with Naruto, thus fully unleashing its true potential for Naruto to then use together with him, just like it required Bee and Gyuki to work as a team in order for Bee to be so powerful with it.

This is why a number of people think that Kurama and the Biju should have remained actual "demons" rather than being turned into such sentient chakra constructs and whatnot. It would have allowed Naruto to truly become stronger because of his own, naturally huge chakra reserves and that Kurama simply wanted to possess him or something like that (initially anyway).

And yes, there is a problem if the MC himself has "hidden power" because that by itself contradicts the idea of a real "underdog", if that's the message trying to be sent anyway, who isn't supposed to be "special", and again, it makes it look like they have a constant crutch or "cheat code" giving them an advantage over everyone else who is genuinely trying to work hard, even those higher up than the MC. And the only reason the MC may lose is usually due to either wanting to force the plot forward or they encounter one of the already-strongest "rival" characters early on. An underdog MC can still be interesting, even in battle stories, without being given such things.

 

Someone like Lee is a real example of an underdog if he were the MC who got to where he is purely through his hard work and dedication. And while he may have access to the Eight Gates, as it was established, pretty much anyone can access them if they know how, but it requires a lot of dedicated training to be able to not be killed quickly by the consequences of using them; training and dedication that I'm sure many would find too intimidating and/or simply wouldn't have the patience to do.

 

[AHK]

Idk why we're having a discussion on whether or not this series had an underdog mc, it's pretty clear that there wasn't one. Sasuke was never considered the underdog, he was viewed as a prodigy

[Narufan85]

Idk why we're having a discussion on whether or not this series had an underdog mc, it's pretty clear that there wasn't one. Sasuke was never considered the underdog, he was viewed as a prodigy

 

Winner.

[Toby]

Not really, because it would have sent out the notion that Sakura would have had to love Sasuke, just because he loved her, and Kakashi's speech would have made it even worse. The SS/NH fandom reject NS because they follow that line of thought, but excuse Hinata and Sakura of it because they're women, and their feelings are the ones that matter. 

 

But in canon, Kakashi was wrong and Sakura already loves Sasuke (she's been saying so once every hundred chapters since part 1 [though I expected that aspect to change,]) it's just Sasuke who doesn't reciprocate her feelings. It's more an action of Sasuke reciprocating her feelings rather than his feelings forcing hers to love him back.

 

I also think Naruto was the only male in the series that had feelings a girl (Sakura) and there were more women with feelings for men than the reverse. (Like Ino/Sakura/Hinata/Karin maybe Temari and Tenten had a 5 second crush on Sasuke, Konan was in love with Yahiko)

 

Excluding Asuma+Kurenai.

 

With so many women who's feelings for males are displayed in the manga, and only 1 male who feels any affection towards another female, it's more easier to pander towards the females from which the audience caught more glimpses of their gender's perspectives.

 

(I hope all that made sense.)

[Toby]

Someone like Lee is a real example of an underdog if he were the MC who got to where he is purely through his hard work and dedication. And while he may have access to the Eight Gates, as it was established, pretty much anyone can access them if they know how, but it requires a lot of dedicated training to be able to not be killed quickly by the consequences of using them; training and dedication that I'm sure many would find too intimidating and/or simply wouldn't have the patience to do.

 

Sakura should have been more like Lee and get the 8 gates

[rocci]

Sakura should have been more like Lee and get the 8 gates

No, she can't.

And naruto is not the only who has feeling for girl, there're rock lee, obito, and jiraiya.

[Toby]

Those guys died.
And not many fans relate to old guys like Obito and Jiraya compared to a rookie like Hinata or Ino.

ROCK Lee liked someone?
As far as I remember, he liked Sakura for 1 arc then forgot all about her.
That was it.

-

I meant Sakura should have gotten Rock Lee's work ethic, and had emphasis on her development via hard work of training blood and sweat everyday. Instead of her mastering super Chakra punches behind the scenes like she had it easy. That's Sasuke style, not hers.
Naruto had a training arc.

[Nar123]

 

Sadly, as we well know by now, Naruto had long since fallen into this area too, as early as the Land of Waves arc even, when he first unleashes Kurama's chakra when he otherwise stood no chance against Haku. Oftentimes, Naruto's opponents that he is empathetic to still disagree with his views, so it comes down to Naruto having to defeat them in order to "prove" his view is correct, but how often has Naruto actually defeated an opponent with his own strength without Kurama's chakra playing some sort of role ("crutch")? Kiba in the Chunin Exams and Kakuzu are really all I can immediately think of (and even then, Naruto really just won on pure dumb luck with his farting in Kiba's face, and it required a "moment of stupidity" on Kakuzu's part simply to allow Naruto to land the half-finished Rasenshuriken). Every other battle seems to have involved Kurama's chakra in some way when Naruto would have otherwise lost or even died. And that's before the whole "Child of Prophecy", uber-Uzumaki and Senju bloodline connections, and Ashura chakra reincarnation crap.

 

 

I agree with you on most of your post except on this

 

Kurama's chakra is part of Naruto, ultimately he would be able to use it, however it would be better if the use of such chakra came with some side effects  

 

Early on the story, especially on part 2 this was quite clear however it completely disappeared after a while

 

I wonder though, it would make more sense if the jinchuuriki were really a cursed thing and that their bijuu were actively bad to their health in some way or another

 

 

 

Totally agree with you ! Look at Berserk, it has both things...and still, it is an "almost perfect" manga ! You can see the difference between good authors and terrible ones...

 

Yep ^^

 

You have good taste

Edited by Nar123, 04 June 2015 - 01:21 AM.

[rocci]

@toby
Yes, rock lee love sakura regardless if it get reciprocate or not.

Her super punch is the byproduct of her talent with chakra control. she would get training off screen since she's not naruto.
Eight gate make a talentless ninja to be more powerful than jounin and kage.
Gai eight gate make him more powerful than 5 kage combine.

@nar123
It too fast. Have naruto learn Kyubi mode at pein arc, he become buddy buddy would be more believable.

[Nar123]

@nar123
It too fast. Have naruto learn Kyubi mode at pein arc, he become buddy buddy would be more believable.

 

Yeah, it would help if Kurama's transition from foe to friend was better paced 

However it still wouldn't resolve the problem for the lack of side effects to the jinchuuriki mode

Edited by Nar123, 04 June 2015 - 02:03 AM.

[rocci]

 
Yeah, it would help if Kurama's transition from foe to friend was better paced 
However it still wouldn't resolve the problem for the lack of side effects to the jinchuuriki mode

There's no side effect If you're already buddy buddy with them. Like demonstrate by killer bee.
And no other jinchuriki truly make this thing vague.