756 replies to this topic

[DrK]

Toriyama thought he was terrible at romance too so that is Goku and Chi Chi happened the way they did, and I believe he stated he made Vegeta X Bulma at first to piss off fans,

Really, he did? I've never heard that before. It worked fine, because no one cares about Yamcha.

Edited by DrK, 03 December 2017 - 08:14 AM.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

The whole "Kishi said he was bad at writing romance" excuse is like if I tell people that I'm bad at cooking, but somehow get a job cooking in a restaurant kitchen and end up burning the place down because I decided out of nowhere to swap around certain ingredients and/or cooking methods without consulting anyone, but face no repercussions for it; simply because I was "bad at cooking".

[T XD]

Every NS moment are from 3 to 5 according to DrK's scale.

 

All these moments have a lead to the pairing being canon. Also, these moments follow the same formula of any other manga that want to make a pairing canon.

Edited by T XD, 03 December 2017 - 06:28 PM.

[NarutoUzumaki01]

DrK post

The CPR scene.
 
























 
Then Minato and Obito show up and Naruto is finally saved and we're left with this image:
 

 
What happens in this scene? Naruto loses the Kyuubi, so he is dying. Gaara wants to save him so he takes Naruto to a group of medical shinobi which includes Tsunade and Sakura. He asks Tsunade to come with, but Tsunade sends Sakura instead. Sakura does and tries to heal Naruto with Mystical Palm, but it doesn't work. Gaara explains that this is because they took the Kyuubi from him, and he can be saved by receiving the other half of the Kyuubi that the Yondaime has. So they go to find Naruto's father. Sakura keeps him alive in the meantime by compressing his heart manually and giving him mouth to mouth. He eventually gets saved by the combined efforts of Minato, Obito, and Sakura herself.
 
When making this post, I was struck by how long this scene is. It spends a huge amount of time showing how distraught and desperate Sakura is. I am not sure if the correct translation for "Your dream..." is "It's right in front of us" or "It's right in front of you", but if it's the former that makes everything even worse.
 
So why does Sakura get so damn emotional? You know, it's hard to say. She certainly didn't get like this with Shikamaru earlier.
 
I mean, she wouldn't even come along with Gaara at first. He tells her basically to shut up and get on the damn sand. But she wants an explanation right now because she's so upset about what happened to Naruto.
 
For me, it's not so much that her state doesn't make sense given the ultimate pairing choice. It could still have made sense in the story. It's just the way that this event was treated and the method that Kishimoto used. It doesn't work the way he did it. Sakura should not have freaked out to this extent. Kishi shouldn't have devoted this many panels to it. She should not have ultimately associated herself with Naruto's dream if she didn't see herself as a really important part of it.
 
And the choice of CPR, and especially the choice of her holding Naruto's heart in her hands is in very poor taste given what ultimately happens in the end. Naruto was dying. His heart had stopped beating. Through Sakura's actions, and Sakura's actions alone, it started to beat again. She was holding his heart, and in that moment, it was beating just for her. The ending not only WASTED this symbolism, it made the symbolism wholly inappropriate.
 
If Kishimoto wanted NHSS, any sane editor would tell him to do something different.
 
So what does this mean for NaruSaku? Well, what was it supposed to mean? Sakura is the one who makes Naruto's dream possible, because she's a part of his dream. Sakura acknowledges this about herself, but somehow didn't acknowledge that Naruto was the one she wanted to be with?
 
You must also consider that Sasuke was dying at the same time. Yes, Sakura didn't know this. But Kishimoto did. Kishimoto also made the extremely questionable choice of having panels at the end with Sakura kneeling next to Naruto and Karin kneeling next to Sasuke. This is a statement that these are the two partnerships he's going with. But then he ultimately doesn't. This is also baffling.
 
Why did Sasuke abandon Karin to be with Sakura? The only explanation I've ever seen anyone provide for this is "Because Karin is a walking garbage fire." That isn't good enough for me.
 
The extreme emotions displayed on the part of Sakura towards Naruto are actually inappropriate if she's supposed to end up with Sasuke, because Sasuke is dying at the same time. It doesn't matter if Sakura knows about this or not. You as the mangaka are painting the picture. If you want Sakura to be with Sasuke, then set it up that way.
 
Sakura was losing her mind over the bad state Naruto was in. Karin was losing her mind over the bad state Sasuke was in. So Sakura should have been with Naruto, and Karin should have been with Sasuke. This works great when you look back on it. What he did does not work great. It looks terrible when you look back on it.
 
Did Naruto love Sakura at this point? Yes... I think? At some point he stopped. I don't know if he had done so by this point, because it's impossible to say.
 
Did Sakura love Naruto at this point? Anyone would assume yes. But the answer was ultimately no, somehow.
 
I mean, Kishi didn't even have to use Sakura for this. Gaara wanted Tsunade, because he assumed Tsunade was the best. Tsunade could have done it. It would have been a little weird, but not as f***ed up as this is. Tsunade loved Naruto in a motherly way. So if Kishi uses Tsunade, it wouldn't look like he did something ridiculous just to give everyone the wrong idea.
 
Rating: 4. I want to say 5, but honestly, I can't. Because the story was already screwed up at this point. He had already started to destroy his life's work by ham-fistedly introducing NH. I don't even know that Naruto still loved Sakura. However, he failed to portray that he no longer loved her. Therefore, this scene is really bad considering the ending. He was connecting Sakura to Naruto's dream. Making it seem like his dream was the most important thing to her still. She held his heart in her hands.
 
But Sakura ultimately became a nonentity in Naruto's life. She would have left Konoha without even saying goodbye, all to be with Sasuke. When Naruto starts moving on with his life, having a family, becoming Hokage, etc, it's established that he's not really in touch with Sakura anymore. They aren't really friends. This was made clear in Gaiden when Naruto talks to Suigetsu. What a horrible result.
 
And all because Sakura couldn't be allowed to keep the development that she had. She HAS to abandon everything for someone who tried to kill her. Why? Because of Hinata? That's pathetic.
 

 
It seems so important to Sakura that Naruto lives. This Sakura would not trade Naruto for a victory in the war. She would have found that completely unacceptable.
 
Yet when everything is over with and everyone is safe. she's willing to be away from Naruto as well as everyone else in Konoha just to be with someone who never really liked her very much?
 
Sakura, Naruto didn't become Hokage yet. Why do you want to leave already? Either his dream is really important to you, or it isn't. Which one is it? It can't be both.

Re-reading that scene is kittening sad after knowing how kitteny story turned out to be.

Edited by NarutoUzumaki01, 03 December 2017 - 06:41 PM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Every NS moment are from 3 to 5 according to DrK's scale.
 
All these moments have a lead to the pairing being canon. Also, these moments follow the same formula of any other manga that want to make a pairing canon.

Exactly, T, so it isn't that Kishimoto was bad at romance, it's just that he wanted to take the easy way out, unaware or not caring, how ****** he would make his story in the process.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

I'm like 0 percent interested in a sci-fi manga by Kishimoto Tbh maybe if the theme was different. But doubtful. It would just be me loling at every stupid thing i could see coming. 

 

The whole "Kishi said he was bad at writing romance" excuse is like if I tell people that I'm bad at cooking, but somehow get a job cooking in a restaurant kitchen and end up burning the place down because I decided out of nowhere to swap around certain ingredients and/or cooking methods without consulting anyone, but face no repercussions for it; simply because I was "bad at cooking".

Its more like if he said "I'm not good a heart surgery." and then proceeded to perform heart surgery and when the patient dies he goes "well, I did say I was bad at it lol...so pay me now ktnks." 

[T XD]

Exactly, T, so it isn't that Kishimoto was bad at romance, it's just that he wanted to take the easy way out, unaware or not caring, how ****** he would make his story in the process.

I'm waiting to see if he's going to redeem himself in his next manga. That's if his next manga ever happens.

 

It's obvious more that he either got pressured or just went with the greed for money. Maybe he didn't care anymore at some point too. It's strange when an author make a part of the story consistent along the way then dump it at the end.

 

It's also obvious from his interviews when he contradicts himself and when he says negative things about NH and SS.

Edited by T XD, 03 December 2017 - 07:06 PM.

[T XD]

I'm like 0 percent interested in a sci-fi manga by Kishimoto Tbh maybe if the theme was different. But doubtful. It would just be me loling at every stupid thing i could see coming.

I remember something said about his next manga, but I forgot. LuckyChi knows more about these stuff.

[James S Cassidy]

The whole "Kishi said he was bad at writing romance" excuse is like if I tell people that I'm bad at cooking, but somehow get a job cooking in a restaurant kitchen and end up burning the place down because I decided out of nowhere to swap around certain ingredients and/or cooking methods without consulting anyone, but face no repercussions for it; simply because I was "bad at cooking".

Add it to that with most people saying "The food is horrible" while the fans of his say "you're just not tasting it correctly."
Kishimoto then has someone else come in to cook a semi decent meal, but at the same time not be related to the dinner that was already on the menu. After that dinner is brought in and some people enjoyed it, they go on to say "See? His cooking is amazing."
The rest of the people are like "He didn't cook this one" only for the fans to say "But he did supervised and watch them make it so. So obvious it is his dish because they are based it off his recipe." The rest of the people are like "This wasn't on the menu and I ordered something else. How can you be a chef planning this event and not give what you said is on the menu?" And that is when the fans say "This is not a 5 star restaurant. You need to be grateful you got food at all."
Kishimoto comes out and says: "Yeah, it is not so good. It is average at best and honestly, I didn't even wanted to cook this. My wife even thought I was going to cook the other thing, but I had to convince her that I meant this dish and not the other despite the obvious ingrediants I ordered. I don't think she buys it."
The fans are like: "Oh he is such a kidder. He doesn't know how great of a chef he really is."

....or something like that.

I think even Kishimoto knows how stupid it really all is and even he thinks this is bad writing even for him, but the fans and staff live in this denial that this is good writing. Analyzer herself is proof of it with the simple fact that anything Kishimoto says negative about his own manga, they downright deny or claim that Kishimoto was just kidding or being boy.

Yeah I am not buying it. Relooking at some interviews, I really feel like even he can see how stupid the ending is and that was no way what he wanted for the ending. It would explain so much why he wouldn't write what was in the movie in the manga.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 03 December 2017 - 10:51 PM.

[DrK]

Add it to that with most people saying "The food is horrible" while the fans of his say saying "you're just not tasting it correctly."

If only his sous chef Yahagi didn't leave, he could have had a 5 star rating. Instead, he is getting killed on Yelp.

 

I was thinking about the next one to write about, and the one I thought of actually just makes me feel silly for even making this thread. Because the only logic for the scene even existing is that Kishimoto just wanted to f*** with people.

Edited by DrK, 03 December 2017 - 10:53 PM.

[RulesofNature]

I'm waiting to see if he's going to redeem himself in his next manga. That's if his next manga ever happens.

 

It's obvious more that he either got pressured or just went with the greed for money. Maybe he didn't care anymore at some point too. It's strange when an author make a part of the story consistent along the way then dump it at the end.

 

It's also obvious from his interviews when he contradicts himself and when he says negative things about NH and SS.

 

In other words, he traded his passion for glory as he lost his grip on the dreams of the past, not fighting to keep them alive. Kishi lost the eye of the tiger. He no longer felt the thrill of the fight, stopped raising up to meet the challenge of his rivals.

[James S Cassidy]

If only his sous chef Yahagi didn't leave, he could have had a 5 star rating. Instead, he is getting killed on Yelp.

 

I was thinking about the next one to write about, and the one I thought of actually just makes me feel silly for even making this thread. Because the only logic for the scene even existing is that Kishimoto just wanted to f*** with people.

Are you talking about the Minato scene with mentioning Sakura as Naruto's girlfriend and comparing her to Kushina?

Because we all know what came of that




 

[DrK]

Are you talking about the Minato scene with mentioning Sakura as Naruto's girlfriend and comparing her to Kushina?

Analyzer: It's comic relief!

Me: No one is laughing.

[James S Cassidy]

Analyzer: It's comic relief!
Me: No one is laughing.

*Minatos says Sakura is Naruto's girlfriend*
Pro-enders: "That was comic relief"
Me: "Noone laughed."
 
*Sakura punches Naruto flying him across the room after doing a pervert move only for Naruto to get back up totally fine.*
Pro-enders: "What a total kitten."
Me: "It's supposed to be funny"
Pro-enders: "Abuse is not funny. I am not laughing"
Me: "Then why is Sasuke strangling and stabbing Sakura okay?"

Edited by James S Cassidy, 03 December 2017 - 11:11 PM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

*Minatos says Sakura is Naruto's girlfriend*
Pro-enders: "That was comic relief"
Me: "Noone laughed."
 *Sakura punches Naruto flying him across the room after doing a pervert move only for Naruto to get back up totally fine.*
Pro-enders: "What a total kitten."
Me: "It's supposed to be funny"
Pro-enders: "Abuse is not funny. I am not laughing"
Me: "Then why is Sasuke strangling and stabbing Sakura okay?"

And this shows the hypocrisy of the pro-ending fans.

[Tsuki Hoshino]

I just don't understand why its ONLY a big deal when Sakura hits Naruto, VS every Tsundere in every other anime ever. Like say, Rukia For people who understand the troupe it should be obvious that a. its played for laughs and b. often in the cases of Super power'd dudes the hits don't really even hurt because they massively out-power the woman. The theory is that the dude just over reacts to the hit because its by someone they like. 

[DrK]

I just don't understand why its ONLY a big deal when Sakura hits Naruto, VS every Tsundere in every other anime ever. Like say, Rukia For people who understand the troupe it should be obvious that a. its played for laughs and b. often in the cases of Super power'd dudes the hits don't really even hurt because they massively out-power the woman. The theory is that the dude just over reacts to the hit because its by someone they like. 

It's fine, because Sakura hits him because she cares. Until we get to the ending and we realize she actually didn't care. Then I can see how it's now a problem, actually. She has no business correcting his behavior if she's just gonna leave right after Naruto did what she asked. Because then she's just doing it out of a lack of self-control. I can see disliking a character who does that, trope or not. Something else that the ending completely ruined.

Edited by DrK, 03 December 2017 - 11:41 PM.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

I just don't understand why its ONLY a big deal when Sakura hits Naruto, VS every Tsundere in every other anime ever. Like say, Rukia For people who understand the troupe it should be obvious that a. its played for laughs and b. often in the cases of Super power'd dudes the hits don't really even hurt because they massively out-power the woman. The theory is that the dude just over reacts to the hit because its by someone they like.

Or someone they trust. In the long haul, pro-enders tend to be hypocrites since they probably like other tsundere girls, but sn even many are NaruHina fans, they hate when Sakura does it because she is seen as being in the way still,even if they "won" the war.

[Gravenimage]

I just don't understand why its ONLY a big deal when Sakura hits Naruto, VS every Tsundere in every other anime ever. Like say, Rukia For people who understand the troupe it should be obvious that a. its played for laughs and b. often in the cases of Super power'd dudes the hits don't really even hurt because they massively out-power the woman. The theory is that the dude just over reacts to the hit because its by someone they like. 

 

You have no idea how many times I asked myself the question. There has been WORSE tsunderes than Sakura in the history of anime, I can't remember them but it's quite a long list. But Sakura is the black sheep that gets bash whenever she hits Naruto as a result of comic relief. It's the same as when Kagome said to Inuyasha" sit boy!" and he always ends eating the ground. It's suppose to be funny that's how the humor is in anime. 

[Tsuki Hoshino]

Oh man, good point, when the last time anyone said " man that kitten kagome, always screaming and sitting poor inuyasha!" Like almost never. In fact most people think "good he deserved it, you go girl!"

Edited by Tsuki Hoshino, 04 December 2017 - 12:11 AM.