234 replies to this topic

[Dreamer]

Maybe it was just Naruto's imagination of trying to be close and adored by Sakura like he usually always thinks about.

[Strangelove]

The thing that puzzles me about all this is to why were trying to make wine out of water?

This picture has nothing to do with NaruSaku or NaruHina whatsoever.

[James S Cassidy]

The thing that puzzles me about all this is to why were trying to make wine out of water?

This picture has nothing to do with NaruSaku or NaruHina whatsoever.

Hey, if Jesus can do it....so can we. Jokes aside, it's called "wishful thinking" and most of these things are not to be taken seriously anyway.

God, some of you NS fans here are as uptight as the NH fans. It's just harmless fun between ourselves that's all. It's not like we are saying "this makes it canon." At least I am not and I as I said this could mean absolutely nothing, but it is interesting why Kishimoto chose that layout instead of say another layout that could work just as fine. Would the picture be as effective if Hinata and Sakura switched spots or Temari or ten ten?

This is why I stopped being in the pairing war and entering these discussions. Can't even have fun and free-think it.

The thing that puzzles me is why everyone got so uptight about not only about "bashing" rules, but people making these theories. I mean seriously, some of you are calling bashing on something that was said in the manga itself. What happened all of a sudden? I know the rules and everything about the site, but there is such a thing as keeping a too tight of leash. If we have to watch every single word we say then we could never have a true effective discussion because well sometimes it is unavoidable to bash a tiny bit to make a point.

This is supposed to be fun, but some are turning it into serious business. Chill.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 07 August 2010 - 09:19 PM.

[Zin]

This is why I stopped being in the pairing war and entering these discussions. Can't even have fun and free-think it.

The thing that puzzles me is why everyone got so uptight about not only about "bashing" rules, but people making these theories. I mean seriously, some of you are calling bashing on something that was said in the manga itself. What happened all of a sudden?

This is supposed to be fun, but some are turning it into serious business. Chill.

This discussion could decide the fate of the entire world James ! How can you be so flippant !?

[James S Cassidy]

This discussion could decide the fate of the entire world James ! How can you be so flippant !?

Easy...like this.

So what? --Click here to view--

[Zin]

Easy...like this.

So what? --Click here to view--

Hahaha, but yea, I suppose we're all a bit too serious. I don't have the same issue with bashing as most people though...I'll follow the rules but I think people can be way too oversensitive.

Edited by Zin, 07 August 2010 - 08:29 PM.

[catsi563]

Actually its called logical reasoning based on manga evidence and past experience.

Wishful thinking is what happens when a certain fandom says that a piece of pre manga art has ENORMOUS signifigance when it never even appearas in the manga.

Factual reasoning is what you do when you analyze a picture in a visual medium by analyzing body position, and posture as well as direction of a characters gaze.

body language is an actual science used to day by Law Enforcement to study and predict a suspects behavior. And it cna be applied reaosnably to a visual medium with the same reasoning.

farsical nonsense is what happens when a person cant see past their nose and decides to attack everyone elses reasoning as over reaction or reading to deeply into things.

[James S Cassidy]

Actually its called logical reasoning based on manga evidence and past experience.

Wishful thinking is what happens when a certain fandom says that a piece of pre manga art has ENORMOUS signifigance when it never even appearas in the manga.

No. Wishful thinking could be "I hope these two get together because they are so good together" regardless of logical reasoning. Sometimes some love is illogical and can't be reasoned. It just happens.

Logical reasoning is "Telling by the way they look at each other, it seems like they like each other. Perhaps one day they will fall in love."

Factual reasoning is what you do when you analyze a picture in a visual medium by analyzing body position, and posture as well as direction of a characters gaze.

body language is an actual science used to day by Law Enforcement to study and predict a suspects behavior. And it cna be applied reaosnably to a visual medium with the same reasoning.

This is a manga. Not a crime scene investigation. Even so, your "science" is not 100% fool-proof and does have a good chance of being wrong. I have taken forensics for 3 years myself and I know that that kind of psycho analyzing is only 60% effective when determining criminal minds. Even the average joe could one day snap and be a criminally insane. Ever see the movie Falling Down? This doesn't work in a manga.

Also fictional characters is not like figuring out criminal minds and thus this science is flawed in this aspect. See what I mean by people taking things way too seriously? I look at it like an artist and that's it. I could look at the narusaku development backing it, but I want to see how the evidence stands on it's own first. If it's a strong enough argument, then I can add it to the pile. If not, it is just wishful thinking it supports my claim.

I am sure you could try to read the mind of Kishimoto and such if you wanted, but I think he is smart enough to evade such a thing enough to not only tease at your "study," but also send confusing signals at times.

farsical nonsense is what happens when a person cant see past their nose and decides to attack everyone elses reasoning as over reaction or reading to deeply into things.

Like what you are doing right now? The fact is, that while it can be something it is a good chance it is also nothing, but just a team portrait. I am taking it in stride because it is nothing to really wave about saying "th1s m4k3 1tz c4n0nz"

[catsi563]

No. Wishful thinking could be "I hope these two get together because they are so good together" regardless of logical reasoning. Sometimes some love is illogical and can't be reasoned. It just happens.

Logical reasoning is "Telling by the way they look at each other, it seems like they like each other. Perhaps one day they will fall in love."

gotcha so when I say it may be something and present facts to support it Its wishful thinking.

when yous ay NO it isnt anything and dont present any thing to abck up your point other then Nu uh its logic

gotcha

This is a manga. Not a crime scene investigation. Even so, your "science" is not 100% fool-proof and does have a good chance of being wrong. I have taken forensics for 3 years myself and I know that that kind of psycho analyzing is only 60% effective when determining criminal minds. Even the average joe could one day snap and be a criminally insane. Ever see the movie Falling Down? This doesn't work in a manga.

Also fictional characters is not like figuring out criminal minds and thus this science is flawed in this aspect. See what I mean by people taking things way too seriously? I look at it like an artist and that's it. I could look at the narusaku development backing it, but I want to see how the evidence stands on it's own first. If it's a strong enough argument, then I can add it to the pile. If not, it is just wishful thinking it supports my claim.

Yes it is a manga, a visual medium and as in all art based on visual medium body positoning and eye line can be important indicators to the authors and artists intent. Looking at it like an artist this is precisely why it supports my claim. yours isnt supported save to say you dont see anything. If you dont see anything fine, but syaing your right because you dont see anything is ridiculous.

Like what you are doing right now? The fact is, that while it can be something it is a good chance it is also nothing, but just a team portrait. I am taking it in stride because it is nothing to really wave about saying "th1s m4k3 1tz c4n0nz"

and your evidence to support your conclusion that its nothing is?

I thought so nothing.

I presented a basic line of reasoning and you countered it with No it isnt. I never said it was 100% canon, I simply put out that there is solid evidence to support the conclusion. While in the end it could turn out to be nothing the current likelihood given kishimotos trends as an author would point to it meaning something, and based on the fact that panels in a manga always have meaning it becomes an even safer bet that it does mean something special.

[ciardha]

and i bet money you know all the plot lines kish must follow but i notice you to me become little biased you know how the story will tern out but you sometimes make overestimated views what i mean is you know the story to well.
im not trying to be mean jest honest

No, not "overestimated", I've read manga for years and what I say are things that are screamingly obvious to me, and at times it's darn close to incomprehensible to me that people are so misreading things so badly that they believe in the exact opposite of what Kishimoto has put right in the manga. I can only attribute so misreading the story to unfamiliarity with this storytelling medium. Most manga plotlines (even action shonen manga) do not follow western superhero comic book storylines. However, if you're familiar with Joesph Campbell's Hero With A Thousand Faces heroes journey you'll see most of those points are in Naruto and other manga that have a strong focus on inner growth of the character as well as the outer world journey.

Really, the only major plotline that has any mystery at all is Sasuke ultimate fate-

1) Die as villain with the killing blow not given by Naruto but another member of Team 7-including Sasuke himself (ala Sasori's final choice)- keeping Naruto from redeeming him (the dying anyway, suicide to avoid redemption has a slight possibility, and could act as a final tempering of Naruto's personality. I think this is least likely though. Kishimoto is pointing toward hope)

2) Die redeemed, perhaps being the one who kills Madara, but mortally wounded and refusing to be saved, but lives long enough to state all the things Naruto had hoped Sasuke would come to understand (kind of like Nagato's death. This is slightly more likely but Kishimoto appears to be wanting Naruto to save Sasuke from not only darkness but death)

3) Live redeemed but as a wanderer, doing his best to insure Naruto's dream of lasting world peace and a better world comes true, having no connection to Konoha, renouncing the Uchiha clan as well. Accepting Naruto as a brother (thus resolving the split between the Rikou Sennin's sons) And a minor point overall, but important to members of this forum- supportive of Naruto and Sakura's romantic bond. As we saw even in part 1, Sasuke never had any interest in Sakura, and he actually did a few things that contributed to the part 1 building blocks of narusaku. And catsi will like this last point- a profound apology to Karin and a gradual but hesitant reconciliation between the two of them, Sasuke did develop a bond with Karin, enough that he felt the nearly same about his bond to her as his with Naruto. While his attempts to kill Sakura were with an indifferent expression and wordless, his words to Karin were nearly the same as his words to Naruto- the deep bond he felt to them was an obstacle to his goal, in other words Naruto and Karin have had a strong effect on him, tempering his darkness.

The last option, considering Kishimoto's hints, is most likely. Sasuke is furthermost from this, but that's what makes it most likely, while Sasuke journey into darkness was relatively easy compared to Naruto's hero's journey, Sasuke's redemption journey will be hard and humbling...

Edited by ciardha, 07 August 2010 - 10:07 PM.

[dl316bh]

I'm not as interested in Bleach because to me the fights take up too much of the chapters, and I never got into Dragonball because as far as I could tell it was just one fight after another, without much else- that bores me as a reader.

Actually, a lot of what I've seen of Dragonball in particular had a lot of comedy and other stuff. The action only took over in Dragonball Z and I don't know if that's just the anime or the manga too, as I haven't read manga DBZ (the anime, however, was decompressed as all holy hell and loaded with filler, which is why some fights took up a lot of episodes). Anime adaptions get like that sometimes.

This is why I stopped being in the pairing war and entering these discussions. Can't even have fun and free-think it.

That's because Naruto and how it's discussed is serious ****ing business*.

* Not really, but you know how people are.

[Hak]

Easy...like this.

So what? --Click here to view--

Priceless!

[catsi563]

3) Live redeemed but as a wanderer, doing his best to insure Naruto's dream of lasting world peace and a better world comes true, having no connection to Konoha, renouncing the Uchiha clan as well. Accepting Naruto as a brother (thus resolving the split between the Rikou Sennin's sons) And a minor point overall, but important to members of this forum- supportive of Naruto and Sakura's romantic bond. As we saw even in part 1, Sasuke never had any interest in Sakura, and he actually did a few things that contributed to the part 1 building blocks of narusaku. And catsi will like this last point- a profound apology to Karin and a gradual but hesitant reconciliation between the two of them, Sasuke did develop a bond with Karin, enough that he felt the nearly same about his bond to her as his with Naruto. While his attempts to kill Sakura were with an indifferent expression and wordless, his words to Karin were nearly the same as his words to Naruto- the deep bond he felt to them was an obstacle to his goal, in other words Naruto and Karin have had a strong effect on him, tempering his darkness.

Yes I do my friend. Heck I've felt this was the most likely outcome from the get go outside of Sasuke staying.

[ciardha]

Actually, a lot of what I've seen of Dragonball in particular had a lot of comedy and other stuff.

Which is what (to bring in a western superhero comic) made me like the Giffen and Dematteis period of Justice League: lots of comedy- including parodies of the "grim and gritty" style that is still dominant in superhero comics, seemingly improbable on the surface but actually workable developing romances (especially Guy and Ice's), hints of social commentary- but done in a comedic way, etc...

I've read a bit of Toriyama's Dr. Slump and Dragonball, so I understand his storytelling style. It's just not quite deep enough to keep my interest, and even approaching his works as comedic, it's just not quite the right style humor to keep my interest.

[Kyuudaime]

gotcha so when I say it may be something and present facts to support it Its wishful thinking.

when yous ay NO it isnt anything and dont present any thing to abck up your point other then Nu uh its logic

gotcha

Well, technically it's more like a mix of logical thinking along with wishful thinking, I think he was merely saying that you were limiting your view of "wishful thinking" to some manga art that doesn't have to do with cannon. Whereas he is saying that it's based upon how a person thinks regardless of logic. For example, there's plenty of "evidence" to support NaruSaku but I'm sure a lot of us have wishful thinking that it will happen.

Not exactly sure how to respond to your second line there... your grammar makes it hard for me to make out. But if it's what I think it is, he was saying that logical reasoning is based off of someone coming to a conclusion based off of something that make could make sense.

Both of his examples made plenty of sense to me, but that's just my opinion.

Edited by Shirosaki, 08 August 2010 - 01:07 AM.

[dl316bh]

Which is what (to bring in a western superhero comic) made me like the Giffen and Dematteis period of Justice League

That's been getting some nice trades lately. I've been thinking of picking it up. Hear nothing but good things about it and I like what I've seen.

Giffen and DeMatties reteamed for two folow-up stories in that vein; "Formerly Known as the Justice League" and "I Can't Believe It's Not the Justice League". They're also the current team on Booster Gold right now.

including parodies of the "grim and gritty" style that is still dominant in superhero comics

Keith Giffen liked parodying that a lot. Sometimes it worked great - Justice League, which we're discussing - and sometimes it backfired. But Giffen's always been a name I've equated with good, solid work; he helped create the recent Blue Beetle series and I loved it to pieces, which is kind of where I started paying attention to his name. He's currently writing Doom Patrol, which I understand has always been something of a dream project for him.

Personally I feel grim and gritty is starting to fall by the wayside a bit, at least over at DC; Marvel... eh.

I've read a bit of Toriyama's Dr. Slump and Dragonball, so I understand his storytelling style. It's just not quite deep enough to keep my interest, and even approaching his works as comedic, it's just not quite the right style humor to keep my interest.

Hey, fair enough. I've recognized some well put together works that I just didn't click with myself. It happens.

Edited by dl316bh, 08 August 2010 - 03:37 AM.

[K9ofChaos]

Ah, poor Shino....so quiet and still in the background.
Oh and making Naruto a psychotic badass? That would totally be cool, but would totally be a very OOC depiction of the character. He is, first and foremost, an idealistic character in a world where there s a cycle of hatred. The fact that he maintains his upbeat personality and is actively trying to break that cycle of hatred despite what everyone says is pure determination. He's not a battle-hardened veteran, he's a teenager who's striving to be the best and to be recognized. Of course, his father even entrusted him with the duty of trying to break that chain of hatred, and how would he turn down a request from the Fourth Hokage especially when Naruto is his son. He's like King Arthur in some stories; never losing that idealism even when his knights clamored for violence. Besides, a Jesus-Messiah can still be badass, just look at Neo! And even Goku maintained his idealism throughout his adventures.

I said Dark Naruto, not Naruto, D-A-R-K Naruto. You know, his personified negative emotions from the falls of truth. Look, all I hope for is that Naruto can only access a small portion of the nine tails chakra (which he did say if I'm correct) because either the nine tails is trapped in a confined space and doesn't have a good relationship with Naruto like the eight tails and Killer Bee have, he only has half of the nine tails chakra sealed in him and has to get his hands on the other half for greater power, or both. So in order to master the demon cloak, he would have to become friends with the nine tails and find the other half and have it sealed within him. I also hope that Minato did something with the seal on Naruto's stomach to make it compatible with the FTG jutsu. Killer Bee did say that he saw a yellow flash so it must be the FTG jutsu with a yellow aura covering his body. I bet that "that jutsu" was the FTG jutsu that Naruto tried to master and perfect without the use of those special kunai during his two and a half years of training with Jiraiya but couldn't because it took too much chakra. So Minato could have made the seal work so that the nine tails influence would help Naruto perfect the FTG jutsu. His new seal looks like a full body space-time seal not only for containing the nine tails but also for the FTG jutsu as a substitute for space-time seals placed on special kunai which would be inconvenient. It would make sense if that was a full body FTG jutsu because if Naruto and Madara fight, then Naruto would look like a yellow flash of fast light and Madara would look like a fast mass of swirling shapes and markings. Plus it would only make sense if Naruto could only enter that state when he wishes to use the FTG jutsu and not have that Ninja Jesus Mode as a substitution for the standard jinchuriki transformation. I'm sorry but I just don't see that Ninja Jesus Mode as Naruto's nine tails transformation, that spot is filled for the demon cloak. All I see it is as what happens when Naruto accesses a small portion of the nine tails chakra which makes the chakras influence on the FTG jutsu much stronger thus creating a state where Naruto's body is made of the essence of the FTG jutsu when in use and nothing more. I just happen to find the demon cloak much cooler and I strongly hope we get to see Naruto use the demon cloak like how we've seen Killer Bee put it to use.


@Ciardha I know that the Sage of the Six Paths and other stuff in the naruto universe was influenced by Buddhism and Shintoism (Taoism I didn't know ) and not Christianity but there's some things in common with Jesus and Buddha, they both just want everyone to be at peace and get along with each other, right? I'm not trying to offend anybody, I just figured since Buddhist and Christian beliefs are sort of similar to what minimal knowledge I have, why not give the Sage of the Six Paths the nickname Ninja Jesus for short. Though the crazy Christians out there seem to think that god loves you unless your gay or believe in a different religion so I guess that's why it might not similar to some people. Buddhism seems like the most peaceful religion in the world to me. I'm not really the religious type of guy so forgive me if I don't seem to know what I'm talking about.


This is just what I of the whole jinchuriki thing. I probably just find the whole world peace thing annoying because I'm pretty much a pessimistic person sometimes when it comes to philosophy, religion, politics, whatever it may be. But I'm not like that all of the time.


Now for something on topic.


@Tricksie YOU'VE KILLED YOUR OWN THEORY, YOU MONSTER!!!!!!!!


Nah, I'm just kidding.


It's still something interesting, but it could be some drawing mistake but I don't know, but regardless of that, it's still a good hypothesis.

[Zin]

@Ciardha I know that the Sage of the Six Paths and other stuff in the naruto universe was influenced by Buddhism and Shintoism (Taoism I didn't know ) and not Christianity but there's some things in common with Jesus and Buddha, they both just want everyone to be at peace and get along with each other, right? I'm not trying to offend anybody, I just figured since Buddhist and Christian beliefs are sort of similar to what minimal knowledge I have, why not give the Sage of the Six Paths the nickname Ninja Jesus for short. Though the crazy Christians out there seem to think that god loves you unless your gay or believe in a different religion so I guess that's why it might not similar to some people. Buddhism seems like the most peaceful religion in the world to me. I'm not really the religious type of guy so forgive me if I don't seem to know what I'm talking about.


This is just what I of the whole jinchuriki thing. I probably just find the whole world peace thing annoying because I'm pretty much a pessimistic person sometimes when it comes to philosophy, religion, politics, whatever it may be. But I'm not like that all of the time.

Heh, I never viewed anything having to do with Naruto as having to do with religion and I prefer it that way. There's also the issue that facts tend to be obscured over that amount of time. I just viewed the Sage of Six Paths as a legend and like all legends they tend to be...exaggerated... *shrug*

God doesn't love homosexuality but he still loves the people. I imagine the whole "believing in a different religion" thing stems from the fact that in Christianity you have to accept Jesus as your savior in order to be accepted into Heaven. God still loves all people.

Sorry lol, I'm no devout Christian but I did grow up in a mostly Christian environment so I do at least understand some of it.

[shadow_Uzumaki]

But Naruto IS already accessing the Kyuubi's chakra, not just a small part of it. It says here that the chakra is sectioned off from his normal pool of chakra, and in the next page, he shows Yamato and Bee what happens when he uses the Kyuubi's chakra. The only reason why he had a demonic cloak before is due to the Kyuubi's influence. Now that he separated Kyuubi's will/influence/essence from the Kyuubi's chakra, he now has access to a different chakra source, one that apparently has special powers. It's probably a feature of Naruto's new seal that causes him to adopt that form, but he can still manipulate the chakra anyway he wants. The Kyuubi has no more chakra anymore than it probably needs to sustain itself, it's simply an imprisoned demon.

[CloudMountainJuror]

Gai vs. Kisame? Again?
I hate to say it, but if Kisame has as much access to his power as his fight with Bee and actually tries to win, Gai's probably screwed. His only hope is gates...and he'll need most/all of them to beat Kisame probably.