267 replies to this topic

[dl316bh]

But hey I suppose because it's a government institution you feel a lot more confident. You're not feeling like a pirate even though you're not paying for the things you read. So what would you describe that as? Legal piracy? I suppose that's one way you can still look at yourself in the mirror every day.

Oh jesus...

See, piracy is stealing something online. Reading an illegally provided manga online without paying. Taking a song online without paying. So on, so forth. There is no money exchanging hands. There is no compensation for the work. It is being stolen; and the only difference is that you're not trying to sneak out a store with crap under your shirt, hoping to hell security didn't see you.

I have heard this argument countless times over the years by those who desperately wish to excuse their actions. No one wants to be wrong. No one wants to have done wrong. But we do. It's easier to rationalize and pretty much fall into the "sour grapes" category. No one wants to lose the free ride they're given.

The libraries pay for it. Either that or the donors paid for and donated it to the library. Regardless of how, those copies aren't just shat out of trees into their hands. They're purchased, by countless ones all over, to be taken out. Money exchanged hands and the publishers were compensated. If it's damaged, well you're bloody well going to have to pay the cost of the book and they'll buy another.

Same goes for video game stores. They don't just pray to magical unicorns and fart out video games. They're all purchased. Often more than one to keep enough copies for demand. Money changed hands. The creators are compensated.

Some people just LOVE to point to libraries - and back in the 90's, rental stores - and loaning something to a friend with this. But it's bull****. It is pure, fly covered, maggot riddled bull****.

They're not even on the same level. How many people is that local library going to loan a particular book out to? Probably somewhere in the double digits, but not much more unless we're talking over a long period of time. That's per copy per library; and there isn't going to be just one library that buys a specific thing. How many people are getting to it when you loan a game out? One person.

These manga sites have millions upon millions of unique visitors all the time. Reading manga illegally. For free. Absolutely no money whatsoever changes hands. That is not even remotely comparable. It's taking huge, ridiculous numbers from a medium that is accessible across the world and trying to compare it to small time interactions with a straight face in an attempt to justify actions.

I wish to hell people would stop slinging that brand of crap, because it got old over a decade ago.

Sadly lots of libraries are very reluctant to get manga on their shelve. Why? It walk out and never comes back.

It's the same set of risks that come with anything a library carries, frankly. I suppose it depends on where you live, but quite a few libraries I've been too stock both manga and American comics both. I think it might be a reluctance on some libraries part to recognize either manga or it's American counterpart as legitimate art, but whatever the reason it seems to be crumbling a bit.

Even so, people that walk out with them don't get off the hook. The fines can rack up damn quick. You won't be able to use any library anywhere nearby until it's paid either. Least that's how it is around here.

Edited by dl316bh, 27 July 2010 - 04:00 AM.

[dl316bh]

Oh please. The arguments of "well the manga publishers should let us read the current chapters for free on their websites." is legal piracy at it's finest, and it completely ties into my point. So what? You'd feel more good about yourself because you would be in a position where you're doing something legally AND you still don't have to buy anything? Give me a break.

Why don't you give me a break? Your arguments are ridiculous and you never even really say anything. You just regurgitated what you said earlier and addressed nothing I said. Also, this "legal piracy" crap, which really shows you have absolutely no idea how the word is used or what it pertains to in this case or any other. Even worse, you're starting to fall into Straw Man arguments.

If you honestly feel you're entitled to read the manga for free online like some kind of kid spoiled too much to the point where they expect it even if it's wrong, whatever. But trying to hide behind a bunch of crap that doesn't hold up under more than three seconds of scrutiny is just dumb.

Edited by dl316bh, 27 July 2010 - 04:14 AM.

[Nikko]

I find it funny how many can't seem to admit that their probably upset to see them shut down. I can't afford to buy manga like I used to, so yeah, I stole it and read it illegally. Big whoopdie doo, who didn't? You can lie and say "I never!" but if your an up to date Naruto fan, your just as guilty as I am. It's frustrating that we had this luxury for so long and no someones taking it away because of money. Most of the series on these sites aren't licensed i the US for them to make money off anyway, that's why it's so annoying.

Also, you can try saying the whole bit of "Just because everyone was doing it doesn't make it right". If I can't buy it in America and no companies bought rights to make it so I can, where's the harm? Till they buy and bring over every series, I don't feel they have right to take it all down, they don't own it. Feel free to debate me, I don't much care what others think of my thoughts on this. Your not going to change how I feel. I'm frustrated, I know why their doing it and I think it's over stepping the boundaries.

[dl316bh]

Why not be a bit more civil about this, and at least try to understand?

I have. See my discussions with James Cassidy and Ukakikage, at least one of whom I'm sure disagrees with me. I actually enjoy the civil conversation and said as much to James earlier on. I also didn't trying acting "self righteous" to James, as I was interested in having an intelligent dialogue.

You're just annoying me, because it's going nowhere and you insist on basically portraying anyone who disagrees as a hypocrite with this "if it helps you sleep at night okay with your legal piracy lawl" line first directed at Cloud that doesn't even hold water.

It's obvious to me that you're trying to be some righteous person that's trying to prove he's the better man for supporting anything the publishers do.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Oh please. I'm so glad you brought that one out. It's always drug up whenever we're at the edge. "You self righteous prick" or some variation of it. Yes, yes. Don't forget smug and dashingly handsome.

Prove he's the better man. Are you kidding me? I don't even read most manga anymore. I'm not supporting **** because I don't read it. Like, the last one I bother with is Berserk and I'm so far behind on purchasing volumes. I just call a spade and spade, not to mention see no need for anyone trying to kid themselves about the legalities or moral ramifications. You can pirate the **** all you want and quite frankly I'm not even going to judge you for it; I just find it ludicrous to actually act like you're doing anyone a favor or are right to do it.

Instead of trying to act like you're some hot shot super debater that's always right about everything?

Just living up to my status as an "International Smug Elitist".

Edited by dl316bh, 27 July 2010 - 04:44 AM.

[Insurrection]

While at the same time claiming that it's okay to go to libraries under the guise that it's government funded.

No, you're twisting my words I was just stating a disposition to what you said earlier that libraries were FREE. They aren't, taxes pay for them, that was my only point.

I'm really beginning to feel like people haven't read what I've been saying, then again that could be a good thing.

Edited by Insurrection, 27 July 2010 - 04:47 AM.

[dl316bh]

I'm really beginning to feel like people haven't read what I've been saying, then again that could be a good thing.

I know I read it man; I'm just too busy being a prick.

Also, I forgot to mention you as one of those who've been decent to talk to on this.

Edited by dl316bh, 27 July 2010 - 04:49 AM.

[Insurrection]

I know I read it man; I'm just too busy being a prick.

Also, I forgot to mention you as one of those who've been decent to talk to on this.

EGO BOOSTED +5

@Aethos Nothing is free, just cheaper. There's no such thing as a free server expansion.

Edited by Insurrection, 27 July 2010 - 05:05 AM.

[dl316bh]

Then again I still don't feel I'm wrong in my assessment.

You're entitled to. I just disagree heavily.

I'm just looking at it a different way than all the usual stuff about how manga is expensive and all that crap. Besides I'm not being spoiled. I just don't feel like jumping on the bandwagon of people who are supporting this action because it makes them feel more self righteous even though those people pirated just as much as anyone else. The fact that these people still want free scans but on the publishers site where it is deemed more legal to me is just hypocritical. You shouldn't still want free scans even on a legal site if you're praising companies for cracking down on people because they're losing money in the first place due to you being a part of the original problem.

Who still wanted free scans? I don't recall such a post. I could easily have missed it.

I don't think it's so much hypocrisy as the people just really don't mind. Sure, there were contributions to the problem, but for a good time manga publishers didn't seem to give a damn. I think it got into the heads of all the communities that it was almost accepted and that it was easy; and that's a powerful allure to average joe who wouldn't do such a thing otherwise. When the publishers crack down, sure, the free ride ended, but they seem okay with it because it's well within the publishers rights.

To use an analogy, say you make a fangame based on a known property. Say, Chrono Trigger. You get far along and Square Enix sends a C&D. This has happened and the people behind the project are gracious and bow out. Often they post their feelings, saying that the company was well within their rights and that they knew the risks of shutdown beforehand.

I think for a lot of people, those risks and that stigma faded from mind; as for those who partook but are okay with it being stopped, well, manga publishers let this kind of thing go for years and years. There was no indication they didn't like it until now. Doesn't mean those people who partook didn't feel those companies would be right to stop scanlations.

I think I'm going in circles and not being clear...

and just because you buy the official releases doesn't mean that you still looking at free online manga is not as bad as someone like me who stopped being a consumer long ago for obvious reasons. All I see is a bunch of hypocrisy. Especially coming from the people saying that they're in the right because they did both.

Is this directed at me? Because I already said I don't exactly read manga anymore, online or otherwise. Just Berserk, though I pay for it and haven't ever looked at it online.

[Insurrection]

To use an analogy, say you make a fangame based on a known property. Say, Chrono Trigger. You get far along and Square Enix sends a C&D. This has happened and the people behind the project are gracious and bow out. Often they post their feelings, saying that the company was well within their rights and that they knew the risks of shutdown beforehand.

Holy Crap! You just reminded me! http://www.pcmag.com...,2366827,00.asp They're selling their manga electronically it was announced 5 days ago!

[dl316bh]

To me that is annoying and it's hyopcritical because at least people who are claimed to be whiners, and spoiled children can admit that they're pirates.

Actually, I tend to find that's the opposite. A lot of folks will damn sure avoid that conclusion. In fact, they'll go out of their ways to make them out not to be the bad guys in this and try and convince the others that it's okay because this that and every other thing.

Yet still argue that they deserve free stuff as long as it's in a legal venue where they can't get in trouble for it.

Unfortunately, that's a sad reality, as pirates aren't the only ones who feel entitled to free stuff; I'm still not sure why or what post prompted this remark, however.

Holy Crap! You just reminded me! http://www.pcmag.com...,2366827,00.asp They're selling their manga electronically it was announced 5 days ago!

Huh! I think I remember hearing something about this. I clearly forgot about it in most of the excitement of San Diego Comic Con news and such.

Edited by dl316bh, 27 July 2010 - 05:20 AM.

[Insurrection]

Huh! I think I remember hearing something about this. I clearly forgot about it in most of the excitement of San Diego Comic Con news and such.

The power of comic-con holds sway over all souls now since its takeover of the Mainstream. You are forgiven. Also if they keep up to date with the Japanese they might start something. Only if they're up to date because "localized versions" is clearly loaded.

Edited by Insurrection, 27 July 2010 - 05:26 AM.

[socermania2]

I find it funny how many can't seem to admit that their probably upset to see them shut down. I can't afford to buy manga like I used to, so yeah, I stole it and read it illegally. Big whoopdie doo, who didn't? You can lie and say "I never!" but if your an up to date Naruto fan, your just as guilty as I am. It's frustrating that we had this luxury for so long and no someones taking it away because of money. Most of the series on these sites aren't licensed i the US for them to make money off anyway, that's why it's so annoying.

Also, you can try saying the whole bit of "Just because everyone was doing it doesn't make it right". If I can't buy it in America and no companies bought rights to make it so I can, where's the harm? Till they buy and bring over every series, I don't feel they have right to take it all down, they don't own it. Feel free to debate me, I don't much care what others think of my thoughts on this. Your not going to change how I feel. I'm frustrated, I know why their doing it and I think it's over stepping the boundaries.

I'm upset to see it being shut down, but that doesn't mean I was in the clear. What we, and other fans were doing, was WRONG, and the publishers have every right to shut it down, because it's THEIR WORK. They claim sole ownership to it, and they can choose to ignore scanlation aggregate sites like OneManga, or they can shut it down. And their is no overstepping boundaries, because 1. In Japan this kind of crap is COMPLETELY ILLEGAL. 2. In America COPYRIGHT Law states you can have 30% of an orginal piece for use. They currently use 100% for their work, so copyright has been broken and VIZ etc. can shut the operation down if they choose.

Look. I'm not going on what money goes into the library or the site that keeps them running. It's the fact that you. The user. The consumer. In both cases are getting the product for free. YOU are not buying it from the publishers. So even when YOU go to the library and you're taking out books you're hurting publishers and authors alike just as much. Maybe you can say the library isn't but that wasn't the issue. I was referring to the people coming in and taking out books. Those who in the end aren't going to just go out to barnes and noble or borders and buy the same book after they've read it for free, but yet all I've seen is people justify how they're right in that because it's funded by the government.

My point is that the people proclaiming this a victory for consumerism are the people who will act like self righteous people who only jump on the bandwagon of consumerism once the hammer falls. Yet still argue that they deserve free stuff as long as it's in a legal venue where they can't get in trouble for it. To me that is annoying and it's hyopcritical because at least people who are claimed to be whiners, and spoiled children can admit that they're pirates. Something the self righteous people cast off in a way to show everyone that they're not the bad guys.

You pay taxes. Taxes pay for the books. Therefore, you have payed for the books.

Edited by socermania2, 27 July 2010 - 02:33 PM.

[Chivalrysae]

Anyone ever visit Crunchyroll.com for Anime? I think some type of Manga structure like that would be palatable. In short, they stream subbed anime and you can subscribe for a fee. Maybe $5-10 a month. But you get access to the full archives and high def. For those who want access to watch it for free, they only have access to the last couple of episodes and only standard def. On top of that, there is advertising that you have to watch (which helps subsidize your viewing if you are not a subscriber). And the newest episode is delayed for no subscribers, so you still see it for free but you'd have to wait an extra week.

I actually wouldn't mind something like that. I'd even subscribe to get access to that much manga and I think a fee to access the site like that wouldn't break the bank either. The advertising and subscriptions would go back to the people that license the manga, and the fans get the subbed manga quickly.

Sorry if this has already been brought up in a previous post. I didn't feel like going through 10 pages of threads.