20 replies to this topic

[MagusKyros]

In my time being in this fandom, I have noticed that there is quite clearly two groups of people who view Kyuubi in different lights.

Most (good) stories that come about have Kyuubi portrayed as a evil, intelligent being, but at the same time they make him a mindless bloodthirsty beast. While other stories portray him as either JUST mindless or intelligent.

I don't know about how others feel, but if Kyuubi was intelligent, you couldn't really portray him to be a mindless beast, which in turn would mean that Kyuubi would have no reason to attack Konoha (by just using the mindless beast plot device anyway).

So if you're going to have Kyuubi as an intelligent being, you have to give him a pretty GOOD reason for him to attack Konoha, and not just because he had an insatiable desire to kill.

Everybody agree?

[Kirby]

I agree

[Onionhead Attacks]

Is average intelligence an answer? Because to me Kyuubi doesn't seem like an intelligent being or a mindless beast. He just feels like a beast who attacked Konoha for some reason that I don't know, and is now stuck with his punishment. Since he's usually shown rather grumpy and striking up deals with Naruto, mostly for his own survival, I don't see anything cunning about him at all.

[Kyuudaime]

Is average intelligence an answer? Because to me Kyuubi doesn't seem like an intelligent being or a mindless beast. He just feels like a beast who attacked Konoha for some reason that I don't know, and is now stuck with his punishment. Since he's usually shown rather grumpy and striking up deals with Naruto, mostly for his own survival, I don't see anything cunning about him at all.

I think I'll go with this.

[Derock]

To me and to what the canonical references are telling/showing me, Kyuubi is more of a cunning and scheming beast. Many characters of the series (well the good guys) view Kyuubi as a demon and seeing as he did tries to strike deals with Naruto, sort of like temptation.

I might be wrong on this but it's my view of how Kyuubi is.

[Cloud]

Kyuubi is almost like the Eastern-version of the Devil in Narutoverse.

He schemes, he destroys, he tempts, and he's trapped in his own personal hell.

More cunning than smart, I'd say. Although he's pretty damn intelligent.

[iwant2bnaruto]

In canon, the Kyuubi has definitely been shown to be intelligent with the ability to speak and be reasoned with. If he was literally a mindless beast, then Naruto would not have had any success asking for chakra when Jiraiya threw him off the cliff during his Kuchiyose no Jutsu training.

In folklore, foxes have been known to symbolize cunning and trickery. This is especially True in Japanese folklore. I think Kishi depicted this well with the sequence of Naruto transforming into a 4 tails mini-Kyuubi. Taking advantage of Naruto's anger and fears of never catching up to Sasuke, the Kyuubi manipulated Naruto to surrender himself to his power. I think that this picture is a very apt illustration of that manipulation:

In the clutches of a demon fox --Click here to view--

Now, while I agree with MagusKryos in that an intelligent Kyuubi should have a reason to attack Konoha, there has been an example in Naruto that one can possess intelligence and still want to wreck havoc for no apparent reason. The Ichibi Shukaku merely wanted to kill Gamabunta because he happened to be there. Shukaku clearly possessed intelligence as he was self aware exclaiming that he was free when Gaara forced himself to sleep. He even gave voice to a jutsu when battling the toad boss. I have a feeling that if Shukaku were to roam free, he wouldn't need a reason to attack anything. Even Gaara himself was bloodthirsty - whether it was from his abused past, his insomnia, influence from the demon within, or a combination of all three is irrelevant. He was in fact an intelligent being with a bloodthirst and didn't require a reason to kill other than to satisfy his own existence.

For fanfiction purposes, I just wanted to point out that an author can play around with perceptions of what motivates an intelligent fox demon. I'm sure with with enough imagination, one could come up with a plausible reason for a mindless killing spree once in a while. Personally, I like stories that show the Kyuubi to be a malicious, devious being of immense power - essentially what I find to be portrayed in canon.

One last thought. When Naruto finally succumbed to his 4 tails form, he literally became a mindless beast. Interesting result for one that is being used as a medium for the Kyuubi. I'm sure there is inspiration there somewhere for a possible motive for the Kyuubi to "appear" to attack Konoha with no reason other than death and destruction.

[jim1982]

well In Canon, It appears to be more than mindless. The Kyuubi shows at least average intelligence just very corrupt.

It is also shown that It has some fear of the sharingan or Madara. I suspect that the kyuubi is just a corrupt spirit of a fox that was used by Madara, and is now cynical and not trusting of any. Just doing as It has been shown.

[catsi563]

For my pov the Kyuubi is pretty intelligent and very cunning indeed as shown in mythology.

But where the difference lies is in its nature. Not as a mindless beast which is to me a major misslabel of any animal.

its a force of Nature albeit a deviouly cunning one. that force of nature aspect is what lead it to attack konoha most likely though there very well may have been a motivating factor ((madara anyone?))

[psycho666]

Kyuubi often comes off to me as a bloodthirsty beast, apathetic to whatever cause as long as he has some fun while he's at it. Not necessarily mindless, as he could probably think in order to get whatever he wants fairly intelligently, but willing to do anything for the sake of his own benefit, which in this case would be chaos.

[MagusKyros]

What I mean by intelligent is that he doesn't do things whimsically. The fact he can talk does seem intelligent, but only on a base level. In other words, talking doesn't mean he's intelligent, kind of like how many people in society can talk, but not everybody can play an expert chess game or whatever.

What I mean by mindless beast is that he can communicate on a level with human beings and have some reasoning abilities, but all he's interested in is to cause mass destruction. That doesn't require a whole lot of intelligence, especially for a being like Kyuubi, who is said to have the ability to topple mountains with his tails.

Orochimaru would fit into the first category, but he's not some super intelligent being. There are tons of fanfics out there that portray Kyuubi to be some SUPREME strategist with knowledge of absolute jutsu's and all sort of things, yet in the end he got caught by human (though genius human, but still a human).

No matter how you dice it, it always sounds lame.

I don't see how you can portray Kyuubi like an awesome "God-like" being that got caught by a human. Either you have to take away some of his intelligent and put him on a more vulnerable level or just make him a fairly intelligent beast that can just talk and reason a little bit.

The ideal Kyuubi would probably be of the later kind. Enough intelligence to talk and fight, yet keep his bloodthirsty "demon" title.

Edited by MagusKyros, 26 January 2009 - 11:26 PM.

[Cloud]

I don't see how you can portray Kyuubi like an awesome "God-like" being that got caught by a human. Either you have to take away some of his intelligent and put him on a more vulnerable level or just make him a fairly intelligent beast that can just talk and reason a little bit.

The ideal Kyuubi would probably be of the later kind. Enough intelligence to talk and fight, yet keep his bloodthirsty "demon" title.

I see too many stories that try and portray him as a god. But I think the Kyuubi we see is the intelligent, talking, bloodthirsty demon.

At least in my POV.

[jim1982]

I guess one has to wonder how much the Kyuubi is based off of myth and how much is made of demon lore.

I know that the myth Kitsune were often cunning tricksters that serves Inari, the god of rice. And often seduced men by transforming into young Maidens lol (sound familiar?)

[iwant2bnaruto]

What I mean by intelligent is that he doesn't do things whimsically. The fact he can talk does seem intelligent, but only on a base level. In other words, talking doesn't mean he's intelligent, kind of like how many people in society can talk, but not everybody can play an expert chess game or whatever.

What I mean by mindless beast is that he can communicate on a level with human beings and have some reasoning abilities, but all he's interested in is to cause mass destruction. That doesn't require a whole lot of intelligence, especially for a being like Kyuubi, who is said to have the ability to topple mountains with his tails.

Orochimaru would fit into the first category, but he's not some super intelligent being. There are tons of fanfics out there that portray Kyuubi to be some SUPREME strategist with knowledge of absolute jutsu's and all sort of things, yet in the end he got caught by human (though genius human, but still a human).

No matter how you dice it, it always sounds lame.

I don't see how you can portray Kyuubi like an awesome "God-like" being that got caught by a human. Either you have to take away some of his intelligent and put him on a more vulnerable level or just make him a fairly intelligent beast that can just talk and reason a little bit.

The ideal Kyuubi would probably be of the later kind. Enough intelligence to talk and fight, yet keep his bloodthirsty "demon" title.

Ahh I see. I misunderstood what you meant by intelligent being and mindless beast. I had thought you were speaking literally - as in a being either having some form of intelligence or none at all. I also agree with your premise that the notion of a "God-like" being caught by a human would seem silly at best. However, I don't think it is completely out of the realm of plausibility for a highly intelligent Kyuubi to meet his demise at the hands of the Yondaime.

First, I don't think that anyone would disagree that what we've seen and heard about the Kyuubi's powers are indeed awesome. So awesome in fact that he could be considered god-like (notice the non-capitalization of the word god) at least in power. Next, I am going to assume from your elaboration of "intelligent being" and your reference to "God-like" that on the extreme, we're talking about whether or not the Kyuubi could be omniscient (or approaching that level). As you pointed out, this would be impossible to portray (in canon and fanfiction) as he found himself sealed into a new born infant. This is if the author does nothing to balance out Minato's abilities in some way but that's not part of the discussion.

So the question remains, is there a way to possibly portray a non-omniscient, yet highly intelligent Kyuubi being sealed into Naruto? I think it is possible. A supreme strategist with absolute jutsu's was mentioned so I'm going to go along with that. I'm going to classify the jutsus under the Kyuubi's power and since it was already so overwhelming, it wouldn't have affected the outcome of his battle with Minato. Now, if the Kyuubi were a supreme strategist, would that make it impossible for Minato to have done what he did? Shikamaru is considered a genius strategist and his IQ was stated at being over 200. A number of genius category IQ scales would peg that at "immeasurable genius". Sounds almost omniscient but let's not go there. Now in Shikamaru's battle with Tayuya, he would have lost if not for the timely intervention on Temari's part. He actually proved slightly superior in ability against Tayuya in level 1 cursed seal form. In the end though, despite his strategic genius, he was simply over powered by Tayuya's level 2 form. This can be related to Minato's case since his sealing techinque contracted with calling forth the Shinigami - a being simply more powerful than the Kyuubi. Even if the Kyuubi was portrayed with genius level intelligence, I doubt very much he could overcome a sealing techinque powered by the literal God of Death itself. The parallel is not a perfect one nor is it meant to be. I simply wanted to explore the possibility that under the right circumstances, a genius strategist with superior ability could be defeated by his opponent.

Do I think that the Kyuubi's intelligence is on this level? No. However, I would not underestimate how intelligent the Kyuubi could be. The bijuu are alleged to be demons of the ancient world. Who knows how old the Kyuubi is? With that potential longevity, imagine how much experience he could have gained and with it, increased intelligence and wisdom. Even if this were not the case, I found that it has been shown that the Kyuubi possesses a cunning, devious, and analytical mind.

I also think that there are possible ways to portray an highly intelligent Kyuubi that could generally cause destruction on a whim. It has been said that just the feel of his chakra is malicious. It has also been said that the Kyuubi is an age-old natural disaster that appears when human malice collects and festers. Perhaps he is a spirit of malice? Would it be that much of a stretch to see the Kyuubi as we know him cause destruction simply because it's in his nature? I'm sure an extremely talented author could explore this and other possibilities for that particular premise. I happen to agree that it definitely doesn't require a lot of intelligence to be only interested in causing mass destruction. However, I think there is validity in the opposite - being interested in only causing mass destruction does not necessarily mean lower intelligence. Again, Shikamaru is an apt example. He's only interested in watching clouds which hardly requires any intelligence. Does that determine his level of intelligence though? Not at all. He just happens to be lazy in nature and finds it natural to simply relax and watch clouds pass by.

Ultimately, whether or not the various portrayals of Kyuubi are acceptable depend largely on the author. I've encountered stories where the portrayal is based on what you consider the ideal Kyuubi but I just couldn't accept it. The specific plots behind the portrayal always seem to end up not being well thought out.

Edited by iwant2bnaruto, 28 January 2009 - 12:06 AM.

[BlackLightning]

as far as my POV goes, I agree that he's a beast but he's anything but mindless. Kyuubi is a pretty smart creature/thing/entity/whatever. He does seem to posses at least a cunning mind and know just the right thing to say to get what it wants which in this case is a freedom from his prison.

Note that for me, "Smart" and "Intelligent" are different. Smart means you know what you want and how to get it, mostly, it comes from experience not study. while Intelligent means you have abundant amount of knowledge, this can only be get from study. for example: Sakura is Intelligent, she know the theories of jutsus and chakra but that doesn't mean she's smart at it. for example, knowing how a jutsu works doesn't guarantee your proficiency at it, whats where training comes in. While on the other hand, Naruto is Smart, He don't understand the theories of chakra or jutsus but he practice more than anyone, therefore he knows how to do it in a moments notice.

In fanfics I have to say that I don't understand why people think its necessary for Kyuubi to have a reeason to attack Konoha. While I understand why they do it, but I don't think its necessary. Kyuubi is a demon, thats a fact, A Demon king in fact or at least somewhat at the same level of existence as that. as a demon he definitely don't need a reason to wreck havoc everywhere he please. as far as I understand on how demons in general acts, being weaker than him is enough reason for Kyuubi to kill someone which actually means everyone in the world minus the other demons.

[Broken Figurine]

In all honesty I can't pin-point an exact moment where the Kyuubi shows 'cunning'. He tempts Naruto into releasing him by offering power. This isn't a trick, this is bribery, and can be done by anyone as long as they have something to offer. If I were to hold out my brother's favourite chocolate bar in front of him and say, "Do this for me and I will give it to you." it would be on the same level. If he were to do my bidding and I end up eating the chocolate bar in front of him, this is also not a show of my cunning just my cruelty. The Kyuubi is a powerful beast who seems villainous in his intents and his capabilities are great. Whether or not he can be reasoned with and is intelligent to use methods other than brute force and powerful attacks is left up to debate. Yes, in folklore the demon fox is a master of trickery, but I can't simply put this label to Kyuubi as much as I can to Naruto.

Good authors can make things plausible. Personally I would accept that he is a cruel, apathetic demon with a large amount of power who is looking out only for himself. I see him neither as intelligent nor mindless, he is simply powerful. The author can play either card as long as it makes sense and is not taken to the extreme. I think that can be said with most characterization in general.

[iwant2bnaruto]

In all honesty I can't pin-point an exact moment where the Kyuubi shows 'cunning'. He tempts Naruto into releasing him by offering power. This isn't a trick, this is bribery, and can be done by anyone as long as they have something to offer. If I were to hold out my brother's favourite chocolate bar in front of him and say, "Do this for me and I will give it to you." it would be on the same level. If he were to do my bidding and I end up eating the chocolate bar in front of him, this is also not a show of my cunning just my cruelty. The Kyuubi is a powerful beast who seems villainous in his intents and his capabilities are great. Whether or not he can be reasoned with and is intelligent to use methods other than brute force and powerful attacks is left up to debate. Yes, in folklore the demon fox is a master of trickery, but I can't simply put this label to Kyuubi as much as I can to Naruto.

Interesting analogy. I think that the context of it is missing two key components though. I agree that offering your brother something that he would view as a reward in exchange for providing a service can be considered bribery (among other things) and not trickery. However, let's add two things that bring it closer to the parallel of Naruto and Kyuubi. Firstly, the service you're asking your brother to perform should have a negative connotation such stealing money from your mother's purse. Secondly, the bribe of the chocolate bar should be tainted such as being poisoned. Now there is a deception involved. The reward that your brother is to receive is no longer what he is expecting. At the very least, you've told him a half-truth regarding the chocolate bar which is still a form of deception.

Comparatively, releasing Kyuubi would be a bad thing and Naruto is aware of this. Kyuubi's offer of power in exchange of being released is as tainted as any poisoned chocolate bar. Not only does the Kyuubi omit the severe and detrimental consequences of said power, in chapter 308, he even tries to convince Naruto that nothing bad will happen to him. To quote Kyuubi: "Remove this seal once and for all. If you do then I'll entrust you with all of my power." Entrusting all his power to Naruto would mean to give it over to him completely, implying that Naruto alone would be the one wielding and controling it. Can we really see the Kyuubi actually doing this? I'd say that he's lying through his teeth.

I would also like to point out that the second part of your analogy is not only just cruel, it is also an example of a deception. If your brother were to do your bidding, under the pretense that you will give him a chocolate bar (untainted in this case ) and instead you eat the chocolate bar - then you've just shown skills in deceit and trickery.

While I'll admit there really isn't a clear cut case of the Kyuubi showing "cunning", I tend to infer that attribute to its connotations to deception. Cunning also has implications with skills in subtlety and ingeniuty. The following is my own personal interpretation, but I think the sequence shown in chapter 293 where Naruto is chasing an image of Sasuke is a case of the Kyuubi giving Naruto a subtle push to give in. The choice of using an image of someone with whom Naruto has a strong emotional bond to lure him into the confines of the seal is very telling of a cunning attribute. If not directly, then at the very least in implication.

This can also be interpreted as evidence that the Kyuubi does possess the ability to use methods other than brute force - such as taking a swipe at Naruto through the cage when they first met face to face. In addition, whether or not the Kyuubi can be "reasoned with", should not be confused with his ability to reason. Using the "power as a bribe" illustration, he presented a logical arguement to Naruto. Naruto lacked sufficient power and the Kyuubi presented a solution where he could achieve power. Even when Naruto was resisting, the Kyuubi reasoned that using his power should not be any different then the other times in the past. This shows that he does have the capacity to form logical and analytic thought. Whether or not one can approach and reason with the Kyuubi successfully is a different matter entirely. Actually, Naruto was able to do this once when he was falling into the ravine during his summoning training. Essentially, Naruto made the argument he should get access to the Kyuubi's chakra in exchange for his existence in Naruto's body. Kyuubi saw the implication that if Naruto should die then he would as well. The reason was plainly logical regardless of being self-serving. The Kyuubi could have also said no. There have been many times where ego, pride, or one's honor gets in the way of reason. We can even see a little of the Kyuubi's pride here as he called the chakra he gave to Naruto a gift. In the end, Naruto was indeed able to reason with the Kyuubi for access to his chakra.

Finally, I completely agree that the labels of trickery and cunning can more easily be applied to Naruto. I wonder how much of that is the Kyuubi and how much is just Naruto?

Edited by iwant2bnaruto, 31 January 2009 - 02:25 AM.

[Paradox Jast]

I tend to portray Kyuubi as an inherently intelligent, yet somewhat sinister force. I am of the belief that Kyuubi was manipulated into attacking Konoha.

He want's to be free of his prison, but at the same time realizes if Naruto dies, he dies as well.



Strangely enough, one of the most ominous phrases we have seen Kyuubi speak was not even directed at Naruto, but at Sasuke.

"Don't kill Naruto, or you will regret it."



Why would the Kyuubi want to -protect- Naruto, his jailor?



... on another note, I would find it totally kickass if right now in the manga, Naruto uses Kyuubi's power to fight Pain... like they had a secret agreement they formed between the two of them.



There is a LOT still yet to be revealed in this manga, and the entire situation with the Kyuubi has been staring us in the face since the beginning of the series, but we strangely know so little about it.

Edited by Paradox Jast, 31 January 2009 - 04:13 AM.

[Hefster]

Well if I recall correctly it is mentioned that the Bijuu are only intelligent when they are bound to a human host. In other words, if the Bijuu ever breaks free of their prison, they would eventually degenerate into a mindless animal. They don't have to become the killing machine that the demons are portrayed all the time, best example would be the Sanbi.

Either way, the topic is about the Kyuubi and weather he is intelligent. We know of the Kyuubi attack and the verocity the demon attacked. We can also assume that Kyuubi didn't talk during the attack on Konoha. Which one can either relate back to the fact that the Kyuubi was without a host for too long and hence had degenerated in intelligence or that the Kyuubi was controlled by Madara, thus turning it mindless.

Then, we all know of Kyuubi sealed inside Naruto, where it shows forms of intelligence. But proof of speech doesn't necessarily mean one is intelligent (jajaja blatant rip off from Star Trek). Either way, as a writer I like to assume that all the Bijuu have a sense of intelligence, especially considering from what we have seen about the Ichibi, Nibi, Hachibi, and Kyuubi, and their abilities to communicate with their host as well as allowing their hosts to stay in control. Even though, we also know that Gaara and Naruto are the only two Jinchuuriki that are unable to control their demons. It might be related to their circumstances of the sealings. In Gaara's case, I believe the Ichibi was sealed inside him while still in his mother's womb, while the Kyuubi was sealed within Naruto using the shinigami, etc. Unless the ability to completely control their Bijuu solely rests within age of the host, it would only be a matter of time for Naruto and Gaara to have learned to control the Kyuubi. Who knows, we still might see that happening in Naruto's case with the use of Sage chakra.

Anyways, to finish my rambling... In my opinion, Kyuubi should be portrayed as intelligent enough to know that he needs to support Naruto in order to survive.

[Sithking Zero]

Really? You've only seen those two? I've seen more.

For example, I've seen him as both intellegent, but can go into mindless, berserker rage. I've also seen him as being kind to Naruto.