77 replies to this topic

[K9ofChaos]

Alright, I've been thinking about this for a long time now, so I've decided to make a thread dedicated to this issue. You know that crowd of people within the Naruto fanbase that always finds something to complain about whenever a chapter is released? They're the type of people who claim that Kishi is a sh*tty writer that hates women and all that jazz. I've even noticed this trend happening in the past by some members of this very forum. Well here's the thing I ask about them.



If they hate this series so much, then why do they still read the manga anyways? I get that the story itself has some problems that don't sit well with the fanbase (especially when it comes to the amount of screen time given to the Uchiha that gets on my nerves as well), but these guys tend to stick around just to b*tch about Kishi's supposed bad writing/sexism.



I can get why people would complain about the direction of the plot (hell, I'm just as guilty of this depending on what events take place during a chapter) but if the plot of this series is preventing you from gaining at least some kind of enjoyment out of it, why even bother torturing yourself when you could either just simply take a break from the comic or stop reading it altogether. That's what other People like Novanator and ChocoboOnClayCrack did when they got fed up with the direction the story was going and they seem to be doing fine.



I've even heard Novanator compare Naruto to Twilight of all things (which is a sentiment that I strongly disagree with). There are people out there who insist on making parodies of each new Naruto chapter that's released that can range from either lighthearted affectionate parodies, deconstructive parodies that look at the series from a critical perspective that can either be positive, negative or just plain neutral, or shmuck bait parodies that are just outright spiteful of the Naruto series in question (pretty much how BloodLustBakura's parodies came off as and ChocoboOnClayCrack's parodies before he/she stopped reading the manga altogether). Here's an example of a tumblr account that parodies Naruto chapters in a spiteful manner:


http://narutomangaun...ged.tumblr.com/


(NOTE: There's also an multi-part essay talking about why Kishimoto apparently hates women and sites Sakura at least more then once.)



I don't really understand why people within the Naruto fanbase are so quick to jump to the conclusion that Kishimoto is promoting sexism within his work when to me, it's much more likely that he might have a little trouble when it comes to writing female characters since the females in his series tend to be overshadowed by awesome compared to the males who have more flashier superpowers by comparison. Is it just a bunch of white knights jumping at the opportunity to brag about their supposed activism when in reality they just want to look superior to a bunch of other people? Is it just an excuse to bash some characters they don't particularly like who happen to be female? Is it just cultural differences between Japan and the Western World that causes those people confusion which leads to them thinking that Kishi has the writing skills of Stephenie Meyer and is a rampant sexist?



So I guess what my question boils down to is:
1. Why do so many people within the fanbase perceive Kishi as a bad writer who is sexist?
2. If they claim that his writing is so bad and that he hates women so much, then why do they insist on continuing to read this comic they seem to hate so much?



I hope that this post can spark an interesting discussion and hopefully answer some questions.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

the problem is
answering the first question
-> all the females characters are underpowered comparing to the males, naruto is stronger than tsunade i think even kakashi is stronger than her, and most of all female characters tend to go to the support role, sakura,ino,tsunade,mizukage,mito-sama,kushina etc....

bad writing -> comes from because kishimoto doe not use previous chapters to explain what is going on he try to explain after he did it that makes the impression when he do something that has no explication like madara's summoning, probabl we will see he explaining this after 20 chapts or more.

2-> I dont know i ask this question on every forum i enter the answer is

"i'm read this manga for too long i want to see how it ends"," i want to see hinata stay with naruto in the end".





Nobody give a kitten about this FIGHT!

Edited by dovahkiin, 04 July 2012 - 10:27 PM.

[CloudMountainJuror]

I have my problems with the manga, but I by no means hate it. I keep reading it because...well, why not? I've been a fan of Naruto for years. I might as well stick around to see how this story ends first-hand.

[merryGOflava]

1) cause we havent seen our heroine do something in forever, or any other girl that is important

except tsunade........but i wanna see someone in the rookie 11 kick butt.......

so far though

1) tenten hasnt done squat. (except defeat herself in that one chapter)
2) ino has fought once in shipuuden (finally something recently....with the help of shikamaru and chouji)
3) hinata has almost died in both fights shes been in.
4) temari just isnt shown enough....

sakura is the only girl in the rookie nine to do more!!! but for a heroine even thats not alot!!

she only won ONE serious fight!! really!!?

2) why do i keep reading it....?? cause even though I know kishi just WONT give the main girls the attention they need.....i still like the story and want to see what happens....simple as that. i mean i STILL like naruto and hes a good enough reason for me to keep reading and the romance/fights...blah blah

....i just wish that kishi would give a girl a chance.... and NOT a girl that will only show up 2 or 3 times in the whole entire manga!

sure tsunade and the mizukage are cool.....but i want a main girl....someone i can see constantly....fight.


in this manga kishi makes it seem girls like aren't DEPENDABLE.

every fight that has a girl im thinking.....oh gosh....how are they gonna even match up to that awesome guy?


not gonna lie....this is why i have to sometimes get away from manga and watch some superhero stuff.....cause the girls in there can fight! and even though some might not be as powerful as the boys, they can STILL hold their own without them.
WonderWoman is awesome.

Edited by merryGOflava, 04 July 2012 - 11:37 PM.

[Konohakitten]

I admit I've noticed that not to many ppl are happy with where Kishi has taken the story yet again. However I dont dissect the story to the levels that some ppl do. I read it because I have for so long and I'm reading it till its over. A chapter is a chapter and I dont like certain ones while I hate others, to me everything is needed to tell the story even if it pokes ass in the process. To me its just a manga lol and it will have its ups and downs.

[sardns]

This is why I stopped visiting the official Naruto website; people left and right just wouldn't stfu and stop complaining. It's fine when you have some complaints about the story and aren't happy with it at the moment, but when you b*tch about it constantly and keep on saying things like "Kishimoto has hit rock bottom guis!! Naruto sux!!" it's enough already.

I guess people who whine about Naruto still read it for the same reasons I still read Bleach: they invested too much time into it to just stop, and they look at it as a commitment.

[Greed-Sama]

You know, I have a theory about manga. I noticed it when I read Fullmetal Alchemist last year. Because the manga/anime had already been completed, I sailed through it. And it's the pace that gives to what's called narrative drive. So all of those "problems" that people see in longer running manga such as Naruto and Bleach are accentuated when you're waiting for it slowly, getting only a bit of it week by week.

What else is there to do but speculate and reanalyze already published chapters?

Can't blame anyone for it. I think we're just bored and the pace seems so stunted.

[Paptala]

I agree that the hate can get really bad. I stopped going to Naruto Forums Library and many other parts of that forum (as that is the only other forum I really frequent aside from this one) because I got so tired of the constant deriding and ripping apart of the manga every single week.

I can't see why if they don't like the manga, why they don't just stop reading it. Why not just read it in chunks if you want to see how it ends up? Why do they insist on ruining the experience for the people who still care for the manga?

Edited by Paptala, 05 July 2012 - 03:22 AM.

[Deej]

If they hate this series so much, then why do they still read the manga anyways?

That is like saying, why do you keep watching your favorite sports team when they are losing? You do it because you are a fan and hope they can start winning. You do not abandon them because you still care about the team. So just like with this manga, many are still sticking with it because they hope it can turn around. Even if I have problems with the manga, there are many characters I still care about.

[Super Boom]

Pretty much what Deej said (I was about to say the same thing ).

I agree to an extent that it's pointless to keep complaining about a form of media that you've never really cared for, or haven't cared for long enough to not have any hope of it regaining your interest. However, it's a completely different story when you're rooting for that form of media to regain your interest. A good deal of us, in this case, are really hoping for Kishi to improve the story, or at least recapture our interest the same way the Sasuke Retrieval or Kazekage Rescue Arcs did.

Well, that's my opinion anyway. If I complain about the manga, it's because I still have hope that it'll improve. I'm not the type to complain about something I see as being beyond saving.

Edited by Boom...Winning, 05 July 2012 - 04:11 AM.

[kirabook]

To be honest, I just don't see where this sexist stuff is coming from. Sure, the woman don't get a big role in his manga, but so what? Even in the beginning he admitted he couldn't draw pretty girls. Heck, he gets nervous about drawing Sakura in a bikini. To be honest, I don't think he's purposely putting them in the back seat, he just goes with what he's comfortable with and that's strong guys.

As for the rest, meh, I'm not too deep in the Naruto fanbase for a reason. Bashing kinda bores me and it truly serves no purpose. If I don't like something, I quietly inch away from it until I don't even think about it anymore. That's happened with a lot of manga in the past and it's usually subconsciously. It almost happened with Naruto during the previous Sasuke arc. I would forget to go check for chapters and whatnot because I was just so bored with Sasuke's story, but I came back as soon as Naruto too the center stage.

I have dropped Bleach for the most part. I promised myself I would read it until the end, but there were just too many issues with it and I couldn't take it anymore so I dropped it. I think I complained maybe once somewhere, but it wasn't anything intense.

That said, I think the biggest issue with the Naruto fanbase IS the Naruto fanbase. They've invested too much time in it so when the plot goes somewhere THEY don't want it to go, they get upset. I think they forget that they aren't the ones creating this manga, the manga isn't a fanfiction, it's not something they have control over whatsoever.

Another problem is that fans rarely ever look at the bigger picture. I go back and read manga that has been completed already and realize that if I were reading this at the time it was being released, 'I would probably be so upset about this until that happens later'. Weekly/Monthly manga is like watching an hour long movie in 2 minute increments once a week. The waiting not only kills you, but it gives the reader too much time to imagine it going a different way, THEIR way, rather than the way the mangaka/author intends it.

The same thing happens for normal books series and everything.

So, to summerize:

-The Naruto fanbase needs to take a step back and realize they are nothing but fans and they are fully capable of moving on with their lives without causing a fuss.
- Many fans don't look at the whole picture, nor do they think about what the little things in each chapter could mean in the long run. There's always this... saying I guess you could say, that if you look at something twice or thrice, you'll see things you didn't before. The same applies to things like manga and books.
- ENTITLEMENT RUINS LIVES

Edited by kirabook, 05 July 2012 - 04:14 AM.

[Anguyen92]

All right, interesting thread and I think I can tie in my current situation well in the whole thing. Well, I guess for some people either they are going to complain that the story is going to go nowhere or they are going to move on to the next thing to fill their time and occasionally just read the next chapter be like "yup, all right."

I mean, last year, when I joined, I was like yep, "I'm going to go in there, talk as much about pairings and story as I can." This year, however, since not much scenery, in the story, has changed all that much, I've pretty much squeezed as much juice I possibly can, and as a result, I just became complacent with the direction, haven't been invested in the series as much as I used to, just only read the occasional chapter and just see how it ends without much investment in the actual story. I'm not gonna complain much about it, since that's going to go nowhere, and that the direction I want to take is going somewhere productive.

Also starting a new major in school, and seeing someone you thought you would never see again, and talking to that person nearly everyday affects a person's investment in something.

Edited by Anguyen92, 05 July 2012 - 05:08 AM.

[Shadow Wolf]

So, to summerize:

-The Naruto fanbase needs to take a step back and realize they are nothing but fans and they are fully capable of moving on with their lives without causing a fuss.
- Many fans don't look at the whole picture, nor do they think about what the little things in each chapter could mean in the long run. There's always this... saying I guess you could say, that if you look at something twice or thrice, you'll see things you didn't before. The same applies to things like manga and books.
- ENTITLEMENT RUINS LIVES

I prefer to refrain from saying anything (last time I did, I had a really sour time) and just agree with this. This pretty much explains my sentiment with fans who can't accept a writer's flaws.

[James S Cassidy]

You know I never found myself hating this manga. Oh sure I have moments that I hate or some things Kishi did that I feel he could have done differently, but on the whole I love the manga itself.

Really, I just want to stop seeing Sasuke now and focus on other stuff that doesn't involve him. We have enough chapters already on Sasuke, now time to move either back to Naruto or give Sakura a chance to shine...again.

[shadow_Uzumaki]

Meh, every fandom has their haters that continue with their...er, fandom. This is seriously nothing new. This kind of thing pops up especially in long runners because it's taking a long time to resolve a lot of things, especially since it always feels like people get a trickle when they expected a waterfall. Just ignore, no big deal.

Heck, I just read this so I know what happens, it's kinda lost the whole "MAN, What an awesome anime!" effect that I had when I first saw and read it. I just want to see how it ends.

At least it's not as bad as Rumiko "Status Quo is God" Takahashi. That Inuyasha-Kagome-Kikyo triangle did not need to be dragged out and resolved at the last few chapters of Inuyasha.....

[TerrorKing]

People complain because they care. Well, most of them do at least. Sure, it gets out of hand sometimes but that's not really anything new. I'm not saying that that makes it okay or anything, it just makes it normal. Me personally, I don't always like or agree with the way the story is going, but I at least always try to get the best out of it and then hope that eventually, it will get to some of the stuff that I find interesting.

Remeber, constructive criticism is not entitlement.

Edited by TerrorKing, 06 July 2012 - 02:15 AM.

[KnS]

- ENTITLEMENT RUINS LIVES

I think this comment deserves a gold star. The attitude of entitlement combined with a lack of genuine appreciation adds a lot of negativity to our society today -- including our fandom societies, sometimes.

Remeber, constructive criticism is not entitlement.

I get what you're saying, and I appreciate your point. You're right.

But I guess where applying the term "constructive criticism" breaks down for me is when readers relentlessly complain about Kishimoto's story, presentation, and decisions. (It's even worse when the complaining is based on huge assumptions.) It seems to me that complaining falls under the classification of "feedback" and not constructive criticism -- especially considering there's often nothing truly constructive in most of the complaints I read. And if the criticisms are unlikely to ever reach Kishimoto or his team, how can they ever be constructive in the literal sense?

I tend to think constructive criticism is only valuable and effective when it is offered by an experienced peer. For example, if you've written fan fiction then you're in a better position to offer another fan fiction writer constructive insights and opinions based on your knowledge and experience. Unless we're professional mangaka with more than ten years of experience producing a successful, long-term manga, how can we judge Kishimoto's ability or vision with any authority?

Readers can express their opinions -- provide reactionary feedback of his results -- but that's as consumers, not as Kishimoto's peers or as qualified critics of the medium. I think the moment a reader believes their personal preferences and expectations count for more than an author's intent and artistic rights, the reader has strayed into the realm of entitlement.

I agree that the slow pace causes a lot of frustration and impatience, and makes it tough to see the big picture that Kishimoto has the ultimate responsibility for delivering. You know the old saying that it's easier to destroy than to create? Yeah. It takes Kishimoto, et al., more than a decade to conceive of an entire universe of characters and a complicated plot, a week to produce ~16 pages of story at a time, and it takes "fans" ten minutes to read those 16 pages and say, "Well, that sucked."

I also agree with the other statements that maybe -- just maybe -- if someone finds themselves routinely unable to find any enjoyment in Kishimoto's work then it might be time to stop reading for a while or seriously reevaluate their expectations.

Just my opinion.

[Strangelove]

I admit I've noticed that not to many ppl are happy with where Kishi has taken the story yet again. However I dont dissect the story to the levels that some ppl do. I read it because I have for so long and I'm reading it till its over. A chapter is a chapter and I dont like certain ones while I hate others, to me everything is needed to tell the story even if it pokes ass in the process. To me its just a manga lol and it will have its ups and downs.

I agree with that.

[James S Cassidy]

I tend to think constructive criticism is only valuable and effective when it is offered by an experienced peer. For example, if you've written fan fiction then you're in a better position to offer another fan fiction writer constructive insights and opinions based on your knowledge and experience. Unless we're professional mangaka with more than ten years of experience producing a successful, long-term manga, how can we judge Kishimoto's ability or vision with any authority?

The problem with this kind of thinking is that without the fans who do like the manga or media, then your stuff doesn't sell. So you got to have these understanding of what you want to do and what the fans expect. Sure, you can't do everything and you can't please everyone, but don't the fans views mean anything? You're basically saying that the people who buy the manga are stupid and we only buy the manga because it is popular.

You say only an artist can critique an artist. Sad to say the world doesn't work like that. I am an artist and I believe my work is as good as Leonardo DaVinci. If you have seen my work would you say I was? According to you and the logic that you dictate, it doesn't matter because since you are not an artist, you have no right to an opinion. Which is wrong. If the story was for Kishimoto's own benefit, then yeah who cares what we think, but since he makes his life's business off of it, then the fans cannot be ignored because that is who you are trying to sell to.

So from a Artistic stand point, yeah Kishimoto does what he wants, but from a business stand point that kind of logic doesn't fly especially when you want to make money. Kishimoto himself has taken advice from editors about what to add and what not to add to better soothe the story and he even said that some characters were made up because the editors told him to. So Kishimoto does listen to constructive criticism, just not from people who whine because they don't get their way.

And sometimes as an artist, it is good to bounce your ideas off an average person to see what people are into. Will you take their advice? Not all the time, but you can get ideas from it.

[KnS]

The problem with this kind of thinking is that without the fans who do like the manga or media, then your stuff doesn't sell. So you got to have these understanding of what you want to do and what the fans expect. Sure, you can't do everything and you can't please everyone, but don't the fans views mean anything?

Yes, how the manga is received by fans matters in terms of sales. That's the one power we have as consumers. If we don't like something enough to buy it, then that will have an impact on the overall success of a serialized work. A published author like Kishimoto (and his handlers) understands this.

However, your assertion that Kishimoto must concern himself with "what the fans expect" is far too broad to be supportable. The only thing fans have a right to expect is that Kishimoto will finish the story he started. They have no right to expect they're going to like every part of it, or that he is always going to make choices that please them, and if he doesn't he needs to listen to their ideas.

On one had you seem to be saying he cannot do everything and please everyone, and on the other saying he must meet fan expectations. This is a contradiction. Which expectations are his concern? Which fans? Should he listen to Hinata fans who think she would make a better heroine than Sakura? Should he listen to fans who are tired of the Uchiha and drop that part of the story? Should he listen to fans who think Naruto is annoying and too stupid to be a hero? Should a questionnaire be included after every chapter so he gets feedback from readers before he decides where to steer his story next?

Publishers and editors took a risk on Kishimoto's concept when he presented it. He's writing his concept. To open up that process to the direct influence and demands of readers who don't even know what his final vision is would be disastrous. Kishimoto has to maintain artistic control over his story without interference from "what the fans expect." If he's going to fail he has to fail at telling his story, the way he and his editors have agreed to tell it.

If people get disappointed enough to stop buying it, maybe he would reevaluate. But if I had to guess, I'd say most of the loud and vitriolic complaints about Kishi's work come from fans who have never spent a single penny on it.

You're basically saying that the people who buy the manga are stupid and we only buy the manga because it is popular.

I was most certainly not saying that.

You say only an artist can critique an artist.

I said I tended to think (implying it was my personal opinion) that constructive criticism is most valuable and effective when it comes from an experienced peer, and I stand by that statement. Anyone can give an opinion, but it doesn't mean they know what they're talking about or that their motive for the criticism has any objective validity. It's just an expression of personal interpretation or preferences.

I am an artist and I believe my work is as good as Leonardo DaVinci. If you have seen my work would you say I was? According to you and the logic that you dictate, it doesn't matter because since you are not an artist, you have no right to an opinion. Which is wrong.

*sigh* I clearly said readers have a right to an opinion. But as I've already said, an opinion or constant complaining is not the same thing as critique or constructive criticism.

To use your example, an objective analysis of the techniques and effect da Vinci used to render the Mona Lisa would be critique. An objective analysis of how da Vinci could have painted the Mona Lisa differently to make his artistic intention more accessible would be constructive criticism. A museum visitor saying, "This painting would be cool if the chick wasn't so fug" is a subjective opinion that likely would not hold much sway over the artist if he were alive today.

The point of this thread is not that readers don't get to have an opinion. It's to get at why so-called fans are so "if the chick wasn't so fug" negative all the time. If people are so disappointed in Kishimoto's work that they can't stop complaining about it, why are they reading it? For the sheer joy of complaining? Because they're entitled? Because they could do the job so much better than him and he needs to listen to their genius?

Kishimoto himself has taken advice from editors about what to add and what not to add to better soothe the story and he even said that some characters were made up because the editors told him to. So Kishimoto does listen to constructive criticism, just not from people who whine because they don't get their way.

Which is exactly what I said. Kishimoto should listen to his peers and other professionals who are qualified to give him criticism and artistic advice. But reader opinion cannot and should not drive Kishimoto's decisions or his story. That would completely destroy his credibility.

And really, James, we don't have to agree. I don't enjoy negativity, and don't happen to think Kishimoto owes me anything because I read his story -- even though I'm a fan who does actually pay for it.