127 replies to this topic

[Toby]

(None of that The Last logic please, kishi didn't write that movie with his own hands. :\)

 

 

 

 

Hashirama's MISTAKE^ , which Naruto resolved to never repeat.

 

Instead of getting revenge (causing more fighting,) he forgives and brings all sympathetic villians to the good side. (Itachi, Obito, Madara, Nagato/Konan, Neji, etc)

 

But suddenly when his greeeat grandma shows up:

 

 

He seals this one permanently without trying to force her side of the story out of her and then convert her. This last one.

 

he did convert Sasuke but, he outright got rid of Kaguya without redeeming her. Just like Hashirama simply gave up on converting Madara and simply "killed" him. 

 

This could potentially be the start of Naruto's CHANGE into a "the end justifies the means" type of person, and that's how we gradually ended up with a semi-heartless Hokage who'd rather endure, forcing himself to take things SERIOUSLY and do paperwork all day instead of goofing off and playing around with his son+daughter+wife and doesn't give a kitten about how Sakura and her family is faring because he needs to endure his Hokage duties. (Like a parallel to Hashirama's mistake when he "killed" Madara.) 

 

 

If that were the case, it makes perfect sense why NaruSaku didn't happen and... Sakura would rather choose Sasuke over a guy like that, she rooted so long 600 chapters for and then he just GAVE UP. She would not want to be together with that Naruto. And I guess it's a wise decision, given this isn't the same Naruto?

 

What do you think?

 

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"NS not happening" isn't the reason Naruto changed, I think this is the reason^

 

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I also wonder, WHY, would he do this to Kaguya?

He didn't even try to talk to her to hear her motivations from her own mouth! 

 

So was it because Kaguya was too difficult an opponent and too incomprehensible that he just gave up because he didn't want to risk the lives of his friends over someone THIS unfathomable? Like Hashi didnt want to risk Konoha. 

 

Or it could have something to do with Neji's death. Hinata told Naruto to not go back on his words (a.k.a. endure it) and that Neji's memory lives in their hearts.

 

Obito (and inadvertibly Hinata) also rubbed it in Naruto's face that he could do NOTHING when Neji died in front of his eyes. (This is the difference between how Jiraiya died)

Thus saying that Naruto is useless and there are some things he can't stop even if he is physically there:  therefore, Naruto must endure it and move on. He must do it FOR his comrades because his own life isn't his.  (like Hashirama must do it FOR the village)

 

 

I can imagine either Sakura or Sasuke saying "You changed, Naruto" or just thinking it inside either their mind or subconscious. And this mutual feeling in regards to Naruto made SS possible, plus they were together for the Kaguya battle so they knew what happened.

 

"You changed, Hashirama," -Madara | = | "You changed, Naruto," -Sakura (+Sasuke?)

[AHK]

Sorry but no, it doesn't make sense at all, and this doesn't even begin to justify the ending. Firstly, you used Naruto changing as reason for Sakura not falling in love with him, essentially saying it was Naruto's fault in the first place. Basically you said that Naruto changed, and that it was incumbent on him to make Sakura love him. You say that you're not accounting for the Last's logic, yet that is the exact logic used in the movie: "Naruto can change, but Sakura can not because she is a woman therefore his feelings aren't worth as much as hers".

His handling of Kaguya has nothing to do with it, because he had no other choice but to seal her, even the sage said that. Naruto is not Hashirama, and the circumstances you provided literally have nothing to do with each other.

Also, what the hell does Sakura's family have to do with Naruto? It's not his job to care for her. It's not his job to know her business.

Sakura didn't choose Sasuke over Naruto because Naruto changed, she chose Sasuke because she is a disgustingly selfish, shallow person that wanted to bolster her self worth by ending up with a guy who everyone loved for no reason, and then she would finally beat Ino.

Not to mention the fact that Kaguya came before the Sasuke fight, and Naruto fought Sasuke and brought him back. He even told Kakashi that he was keeping his promise before he left to fight Sasuke. Therefore to that point, Naruto didn't change, and this argument has no basis.

Sorry, but it doesn't make any sense in the slightest. NS didn't happen because Kishi was shallow enough to care about popularity before quality and message, end of story.

[Toby]

 

Sorry but no, it doesn't make sense at all, and this doesn't even begin to justify the ending. Firstly, you used Naruto changing as reason for Sakura not falling in love with him, essentially saying it was Naruto's fault in the first place. Basically you said that Naruto changed, and that it was incumbent on him to make Sakura love him. You say that you're not accounting for the Last's logic, yet that is the exact logic used in the movie: "Naruto can change, but Sakura can not because she is a woman therefore his feelings aren't worth as much as hers".

 

 

Sakura STOPPED loving Naruto because he CHANGED. They both changed.

 

 

His handling of Kaguya has nothing to do with it, because he had no other choice but to seal her, even the sage said that. Naruto is not Hashirama, and the circumstances you provided literally have nothing to do with each other.

 

 

 

He had "no other choice" what? Why would Naruto listen to the Sage? Naruto's been ninja jesus, why would he suddenly stop?

 

Naruto didn't listen to Jiraiya when he told him to give up on Sasuke.

He didn't listen to the fact that had no other choice but to kill Pein (a huge THREAT to Konoha), he outright converted him. THIS is Naruto.

 

He stopped with Kaguya.

 

Hashirama didn't listen when everyone plus Tobirama claimed he had no choice but to kill Madara. Later on Hashirama CHANGED and "killed" Madara.

Also, what the hell does Sakura's family have to do with Naruto? It's not his job to care for her. It's not his job to know her business.

 

 

 

YES it is. Or rather NO it isn't his job but this is NARUTO so it is Naruto's job because Sakura is his friend and THIS IS NARUTO who wouldn't let Sasuke go because he was his friend.

 

Sakura didn't choose Sasuke over Naruto because Naruto changed, she chose Sasuke because she is a disgustingly selfish, shallow person that wanted to bolster her self worth by ending up with a guy who everyone loved for no reason, and then she would finally beat Ino.

 

 

 

But Naruto changed. Unless you are claiming Naruto didn't change?

Not to mention the fact that Kaguya came before the Sasuke fight, and Naruto fought Sasuke and brought him back. He even told Kakashi that he was keeping his promise before he left to fight Sasuke. Therefore to that point, Naruto didn't change, and this argument has no basis.

 

 

 

Naruto ALREADY KNEW Sasuke's history beforehand so converting him was no big deal. But whenever Naruto knows nothing about a villian, he ALWAYS made an EFFORT to find out their backstory. He found out about Neji, Pein, Obito, EVERYONE's SIDE of the story first before converting them. He didn't bother to FIND OUT about Kaguya. 

 

Sorry, but it doesn't make any sense in the slightest. NS didn't happen because Kishi was shallow enough to care about popularity before quality and message, end of story.

 

 

That's already been established a long time ago that the ending won out of popularity but also you can't ignore these nuances in the manga which seem to show that the ENDING didn't just pop out of nowhere.

[AHK]

Sakura STOPPED loving Naruto because he CHANGED. They both changed.

He had "no other choice" what? Why would Naruto listen to the Sage? Naruto's been ninja jesus, why would he suddenly stop?
 
Naruto didn't listen to Jiraiya when he told him to give up on Sasuke.
He didn't listen to the fact that had no other choice but to kill Pein (a huge THREAT to Konoha), he outright converted him. THIS is Naruto.
 
He stopped with Kaguya.
 
Hashirama didn't listen when everyone plus Tobirama claimed he had no choice but to kill Madara. Later on Hashirama CHANGED and "killed" Madara.

YES it is. Or rather NO it isn't his job but this is NARUTO so it is Naruto's job because Sakura is his friend and THIS IS NARUTO who wouldn't let Sasuke go because he was his friend.
 
But Naruto changed. Unless you are claiming Naruto didn't change?

Naruto ALREADY KNEW Sasuke's history beforehand so converting him was no big deal. But whenever Naruto knows nothing about a villian, he ALWAYS made an EFFORT to find out their backstory. He found out about Neji, Pein, Obito, EVERYONE's SIDE of the story first before converting them. He didn't bother to FIND OUT about Kaguya.
 
That's already been established a long time ago that the ending won out of popularity but also you can't ignore these nuances in the manga which seem to show that the ENDING didn't just pop out of nowhere.

Sakura never loved him in the first place, so no, she didn't change. She didn't grow out of loving Naruto, she never loved him at all. Sakura never changed at all, which was demonstrated multiple times.

If he had stopped with Kaguya as you claimed, he would have never have saved Sasuke, and would have killed him. Kaguya was a thrown together villain because Kishi didn't know how to beat Madara and he wanted to make Hinata relevant. He didn't change, and that fight, as well as his interaction with Obito during the fight, prove that.

Do you seriously think they were friends in Gaiden? Really? Sakura walked in on Naruto with a sword in his gut and paid him no mind. She didn't even care because Sasuke was standing there. They're not friends, and to be honest, it's hard to tell if they ever were, considering Sakura's character.

Naruto didn't change until after the last. Sakura didn't love him leading up to that, she had her own reasons for loving Sasuke.

And? He knew Kaguya's as well. He explained who she was to Kakashi and Sakura. Once again,the Kaguya fight isn't an example of him changing, considering his actions directly afterwards.

Nope, they pretty much popped out of nowhere. It's not hard to see that.

[harry4e]

um...This makes no sense whatsoever. Seriously what are you trying to say?

 

The biggest thing about Naruto was he never gave up, not on Sasuke, not on his dream, not on saving his friends....with the exception of Sakura.

 

Sakura never grew up that's where the problem lies, she had a crush on a boy she knew nothing about because he was pretty and she obsessed over it to the point she beleived it to be love. Hinta did the same thing, she obsessed over Naruto to the point her cousins dead body became a tool to get closer to Naruto, and her own sisters kidnapping was used as a way to get together with him.

 

The end story was nothing about love it was about obsession being portrayed as love...there was only one, two way relationships in Naruto generation, Naruto and Sakura and that was it.

[sushi.]

Naruto only changed because the manga changed. Since this logic is not recognized as a fault in the series, I don't think Sakura does either. You're pinning the blame on one thing, when it was everything. This is just one of the major factors why we fell out of love with Naruto, not Sakura.

Edited by sushi., 03 November 2015 - 10:43 PM.

[Toby]

So you don't think it is OOC when Naruto simply kills off Kaguya instead of converting her like he did with all other villians?

[Yojeveka]

So you don't think it is OOC when Naruto simply kills off Kaguya instead of converting her like he did with all other villians?

 

The final chapters were filled with OOC, not only Naruto and not just because he sealed Kaguya. 

[Toby]

^He became OOC because his philosophy on life changed. Sealing Kaguya simply shows that to our faces.

[Yojeveka]

^He became OOC because his philosophy on life changed. Sealing Kaguya simply shows that to our faces.

 

No, he became OOC (just like the others) because Kishimoto decided to go with NH/SS and the new generation crap. 

[Toby]

No, he became OOC (just like the others) because Kishimoto decided to go with NH/SS and the new generation crap.

That's breaking the 4th wall now which isn't what this thread is about.
(Wel duh I know he did it for $$$, he's a frickn writer)

[RedFaction]

I think he went OOC when he said Obito was the coolest guy.

[Yojeveka]

That's breaking the 4th wall now which isn't what this thread is about.
(Wel duh I know he did it for $$$, he's a frickn writer)

 

Uhm, what? If you already know the reason, then why are you trying to justify what happened in the story? It has too many retcons and it doesn't make sense anymore.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Well when you say it like that, I can say that's how much manga changed.

Anyway, the best way to put it is the writing's fault to not say NaruSaku was going to be canon, but to say it has no sense of direction.

[Toby]

Uhm, what? If you already know the reason, then why are you trying to justify what happened in the story? It has too many retcons and it doesn't make sense anymore.

Because even though unintended, it CAN be justified story-wise


Naruto runs around shouting his nindo about never giving up, never gives up on people.
Naruto change his mind about all that, (as shown when he seals Kaguya,)
=the current canon Naruto

[sushi.]

You're acting as if Naruto is the only one who changed..

[Toby]

Don't you think Naruto's change influenced the others to change?

Edit: yeah I think Naruto was the one who changed.

Edited by Toby, 03 November 2015 - 11:26 PM.

[Yojeveka]

Sasuke changed his mind and goals more than once 

Sakura reverted to her part 1 self

Hinata stopped caring about her family and became even more obsessed with Naruto

Naruto gave up and was replaced as the protagonist

Inconsistency, bad writing, retcons, fan service, fandom... That's it. 

[Toby]

Naruto gave up and was replaced as the protagonist

This thread is about when Naruto FIRST gave up. Which is debatable. He could have "given up" in chapter 700 but also, he could have given up as early, or even earlier than, when he inconsiderately "killed" Kaguya

(Sakura's regression could be a side effect of that story-wise)

[Nar123]

Because even though unintended, it CAN be justified story-wise
 

 

No, it can't unless you count the retcons and asspulls

 

Naruto runs around shouting his nindo about never giving up, never gives up on people.
Naruto change his mind about all that, (as shown when he seals Kaguya,)
=the current canon Naruto

 

 

 Naruto has changed but that happened during the last for forced NH moments and in the gaiden, 700 and Boruto movie so Kishi could self insert himself in Naruto's character

 

 

 

Naruto's a character that only "saves" people he himself feels connected with, remember, he had no qualms in blowing Kakuzu with the Rasenshuriken or attacking Deidara and Orochimaru with intent to kill in the earlier part 2 arcs. thus the parallel you estabilished between Naruto and Hashirama makes no sense whatsoever because Naruto didn't kill Sasuke, which is unlike Hashirama did to Madara

 

And whatever feelings Sakura had for Naruto were completely retconned so she also never stopped loving him as you implied 

 

Retcons and asspulls are the reasons the current canon is trash, Naruto's and other sudden character changes as well as asspull and retcons cannot be justified