30 replies to this topic

[Bail o' Lies]

I notice a lot of people complain over the years (long before the ending) about Naruto magic speech that turns people lives around and make them his friends. This thing is the speech is normally just one part of it normally the capstone to finish off a whole argument during and often before their fight. Normally a cynical person that has given up hope lectures/rants about it and thinks little of Naruto while doing so. Then Naruto often not always fights said person making a comeback at their lecturing that don't really work till after they are beaten. Then after they are beaten talk no jutsu.

 

Here a list of Talk-no-Jutsu speeches from what I recall:

 

Konohamaru. Was upset of living in the shadow of his grandfather. He constantly tried to "ambush" his Grandfather in hopes that if he defeated his Grandfather he would become Hokage, and then everyone would have to acknowledge him. Wanted to use the sexy jutsu to do so because he saw that it knocked out his grandfather.

 

Naruto hearing this after teaching him the sexy jutsu: "You can't become Hokage just like by defeating his grandfather and it won't make people acknowledge him like he hopes. That it takes a lot of hard work to become hokage. Also, you'd would have to defeat me because I'm also trying to become Hokage."

 

Then he used the harem jutsu to knock out Ebisu which impress konohamaru who then declared him his rival.

 

Zabuza: Thought Naruto was a dumb brat (granted that pretty much everyone after him as well.) After Haku was dead and Gato cancelled the hit on Tazuna he treated everything as done and his business was concluded. Also stating Haku meant nothing to him more then a useful tool to be used and discarded like all ninja. Even after Gato kicked Haku's corpse.

 

Naruto: "Haku loved you! You were everything to him! And you act like he was nothing! If that what being a true ninja is I hope I never become one."

 

Zabuza cries admitting he did love Haku. Then goes off on a suicided run to kill Gato.

 

Neji: His backstory. Goes on and on about all fate is predetermined and there is nothing anyone can do to change it. Loser will always be loser so they should even try. After defeated compliments Naruto's mastery of the cloning technique.

 

Naruto: "I failed the academy final exam three times each time it was the clone jutsu. I changed my fate why can't you since you are a genius unlike me."

 

Afterwards he learns the truth of his father's death, his last testament, and an apology all from His Uncle the Clan Head. Gives hope a shot.

 

Gaara: Spend the arc killing random people. Eventually admits he feels empty because no one loves him. So since he is a demon the can love only itself and no one can love; he decides to kill people to prove his existence. After they had both worn out from their fight Naruto uses he chin to slowly edge himself to Gaara to finishes him off to save Sakura.

 

Gaara: "Stay back! Why do you keep fighting?! Why are you trying to fight so hard for others instead of caring about only yourself like I do!?!"

 

Naruto: "Like you I used to be alone. It sucked, but now I have people I care about and am no longer alone. One of those people is in danger because of you and I won't stop until she is safe."

 

Reminds Gaara of what his uncle used to say about love. Then Sasuke informed Naruto, Sakura was safe. Then Gaara's siblings came to retrieve him which led to him apologizing to them trying to forge a connection with them, starting him on the path to recovery.

 

Tsunade: Depressed and traumatized after the death of her fiancé and brother. Both who wanted to become hokage. Thinks becoming hokage is a pointless fools games since everyone who either tries or becomes one ends up dead. Makes a bet with Naruto to see if he can master the rasengan in a week while contemplating killing both him and Jiraiya to revive her fiancé and brother.

 

Naruto blocks an attack from Kabuto with his hand. "I will become hokage." While healing him. "Looks like I won the bet."

 

Tsunade becomes hokage and clearly wants to hold that position until she thinks Naruto is ready to take on the role.

 

Chiyo: Was the person who put the one tail inside Gaara. Feels guilt about that and her Grandson Sasori actions. Distrust the Sand's Leaf ninja allies

 

Naruto: "Shut Up! What do you know about Gaara suffering?! Did you ever ask? He died because you made him the one tail container, even though he was your Kazekage you treat him like her was nothing more then a weapon with a fancy name!"

 

Granted this is more Naruto venting about how much he hates the containers situations. Chiyo does die to revive Gaara.

 

Sai: Suppressing his emotions after his brother's death to be the perfect root ninja. Also an ass. Confuse why Naruto cares so much about a traitor. Naruto reminds him of his brother.

 

Naruto: Honestly, from what I recall, a creepy speech about how he will never give up on Sasuke.

 

Sai regains some emotions, finishes his artbook about him & his brother and wants to stick around Naruto to learn more about feelings by observing team 7. Still an ass.

 

Pein: Best Friend died so he decides to enact some crazy plan about making some super weapon to force world peace. Questions Naruto as he is also a student of Jiraiya on how he would end the cycle of hatred and bring peace to the world?

 

Naruto from what I recall, brings out jiraiya's book mentions that it was dedicated to Nagato as well as saying he won't give up and he will bring about peace.

 

Nagato regains hope after remembering Jiraiya writing that book, and decides to sacrifice himself to revive the people he killed.

 

Obito: Went crazy after Rin died, decides to go along with Madara's crazy plan. Spends a lot of time trying to convince Naruto to give up and embrace the plan.

 

Naruto once learning about Rin in that mental plane. "You're not no one, you are Obito. You were once a lot like me with all the same hopes and dreams. You know what your doing is wrong. As much as you like to talk, you can't abandon the memories of your team, can you? Stop running away and come back to the village."

 

Obito remembers Rin and loses control of the tug of war. Tries to revive all the people he killed. Failed due to Zetsu. Works with team 7 form then on.

 

Can I ignore all the speeches to Sasuke? Nothing seem to work until the blood loss of losing an arm seemed to work anyhow.

 

Thoughts?

 

Personally most of them work in of themselves. The only problem is Naruto never really seems to evolve beyond don't give up if he is not just chewing them out; besides Obito's.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 10 October 2021 - 08:01 AM.

[James S Cassidy]

Ill just say what I said in a previous post:

"And since the new canon kind of blasts anything that happened previously in the past as nonsense....then nothing was successful; just serendipitous."

They are all a good message on their own, but it is coming from a person who is a walking hypocrite and arguably had his whole life planned ahead of him. I hate the prophecy part so much...combined with the reincarnation aspect and it just gets so bad. All of those struggles mean nothing if by the end it was always meant to succeed. It doesn't feel earned. 

I could blast all these quotes individually apart and I originally was going to, but I feel like I would just be inflating a point that could be said easier with alot less words,

You CAN'T judge people about what love is if YOUR love was merely a means to an end like say a "rivalry game."

You CAN'T tell people they are not working hard enough if YOU refuse to work hard on even the most basic shortcomings a person can face without fuss. 

 

You CAN'T tell people how life should be when YOU don't even know half the problems in the first place.

This happens a lot in real life. We blame the individual for what the system has done and we blame the system for what an individual has done. Victim mentality is a horrible disgusting thought process where you put the blame on others instead of yourself, but justified outrage over injustice is not a victim mentality.

Neji is a clear example of how the system failed and yet the blame is put on Neji and his family especially since his father sacrificed himself. He sacrificed himself over a treaty that the other people broke in the first place and to "make amends." It is victim blaming. "You made us do this, now you have to pay." I am just going by what Kishimoto wrote. Naruto...he just never understood this. He never truly grasped the concept of victimization and self-responsibility. It wasn't Neji's fault for how he was treated and branded...it was literally Hinata's own father AND the other villages that broke the treaty. Neji has every right to be angry. That's like me branding you as the villain for the issues caused in Afghanistan. 

It is is not even the problem of Naruto not knowing...it is the problem of him acting like he does know and then does the opposite anyway. 

"Revenge is bad," but for Shikamaru it is okay
"Love is everything" except when you love, Naruto, because you are only doing it for clout.

This is just a failure on Kishimoto's part and the fault of the people who ONLY cared about Naruto and Hinata's relationship and nothing else.

 

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Ill just say what I said in a previous post:

"And since the new canon kind of blasts anything that happened previously in the past as nonsense....then nothing was successful; just serendipitous."

They are all a good message on their own, but it is coming from a person who is a walking hypocrite and arguably had his whole life planned ahead of him. I hate the prophecy part so much...combined with the reincarnation aspect and it just gets so bad. All of those struggles mean nothing if by the end it was always meant to succeed. It doesn't feel earned. 

I could blast all these quotes individually apart and I originally was going to, but I feel like I would just be inflating a point that could be said easier with alot less words,

You CAN'T judge people about what love is if YOUR love was merely a means to an end like say a "rivalry game."
You CAN'T tell people they are not working hard enough if YOU refuse to work hard on even the most basic shortcomings a person can face without fuss. 
 
You CAN'T tell people how life should be when YOU don't even know half the problems in the first place.

This happens a lot in real life. We blame the individual for what the system has done and we blame the system for what an individual has done. Victim mentality is a horrible disgusting thought process where you put the blame on others instead of yourself, but justified outrage over injustice is not a victim mentality.

Neji is a clear example of how the system failed and yet the blame is put on Neji and his family especially since his father sacrificed himself. He sacrificed himself over a treaty that the other people broke in the first place and to "make amends." It is victim blaming. "You made us do this, now you have to pay." I am just going by what Kishimoto wrote. Naruto...he just never understood this. He never truly grasped the concept of victimization and self-responsibility. It wasn't Neji's fault for how he was treated and branded...it was literally Hinata's own father AND the other villages that broke the treaty. Neji has every right to be angry. That's like me branding you as the villain for the issues caused in Afghanistan. 

It is is not even the problem of Naruto not knowing...it is the problem of him acting like he does know and then does the opposite anyway. 

"Revenge is bad," but for Shikamaru it is okay
"Love is everything" except when you love, Naruto, because you are only doing it for clout.

This is just a failure on Kishimoto's part and the fault of the people who ONLY cared about Naruto and Hinata's relationship and nothing else.

 

Well said, James! The contradictions used with the talking is so damn dumb when they can be done like that! Its why it is cool it is done but the problems shown with how it is often contradicted like with Shikamaru (and given he only wanted to kill Hidan because of his being mad at himself for not knowing what he could do PALES to Sasuke since in spite of wanting to kill Itachi out of his hate for him but he also wanted to avenge the Uchiha clan name initially before he began to walk up and down both sides of Psycho Street) or even with Naruto in The Last.

I want to keep some aspects of this for my fanfic, but I also know I want to call out the contradictions and hypocrisy of some examples to it as well especially when reasons for it can be obvious when you observe the reasons to it all.

[Nate River]

 

 

Personally most of them work in of themselves. The only problem is Naruto never really seems to evolve beyond don't give up if he is not just chewing them out; besides Obito's.

 

My issues with Talk-no-Jutsu come down to two main issues. The first, and probably the smallest, was that after the Pain fights be became a rudderless, reactionary character and Talk-no-Jutsu became something he did. We all knew he'd do, we all knew it'd always work. It had a "here we go again" feel to it and felt empty. This is less a talk-no-jutsu problem and more of a issue of Naruto accomplishing he primary goals in all but name only long before the series reached its conclusion, but it drug the talking with it. 

 

The second, and far bigger issue, is that it was surface level junk with obvious flaws that the series took great pains to avoid dealing with. Obito's was easily the worst. I still can't think of a more cringe inducing line Obito is a cool guy. 

[James S Cassidy]

Well said, James! The contradictions used with the talking is so damn dumb when they can be done like that! Its why it is cool it is done but the problems shown with how it is often contradicted like with Shikamaru (and given he only wanted to kill Hidan because of his being mad at himself for not knowing what he could do PALES to Sasuke since in spite of wanting to kill Itachi out of his hate for him but he also wanted to avenge the Uchiha clan name initially before he began to walk up and down both sides of Psycho Street) or even with Naruto in The Last.

I want to keep some aspects of this for my fanfic, but I also know I want to call out the contradictions and hypocrisy of some examples to it as well especially when reasons for it can be obvious when you observe the reasons to it all.

Thank you. 

To add while Naruto did have some connection with the villains, he only knew a partial of their pain. The ONLY TnJ that makes any sense is Gaara and even then the end kind of just blew this one apart. 

Yeah, Naruto and Nagato were both orphans, but Naruto never had to scrounge for food in a war torn country that was merely a causality of war. 
Naruto and Obito both loved a girl who seems like they didn't love them, but Sakura never died and Naruto never had to face that kind of lose. They gave that Hinata which is all people talk about.
Naruto and Sasuke....again, both orphans, but Naruto never knew his clan or his parents so the lose never hit as hard. 
Naruto and Gaara...this is the only time Naruto acknowledge he actually had it better. They were both monsters and for a time everyone hated him, but Gaara was also betrayed by his own father, the village literally tried to kill him, and saw him as nothing more than a weapon. 

I can keep going. Compared to the rest of the world, Naruto had it much easier and had far more privileges. Not saying he didn't face issues, but rather the villains he fought, for the most part, had issues that were far more impactful and seem like a means to survival. 

Combined with Naruto the Last saying Naruto did everything for a rivalry game, that he didn't know what love was, and that he was always just clout chasing....then everything Naruto has done is a lie. It is all one big fat lie and that is why everyone says Naruto is a scumbag.

We thought him just wanting to be Hokage for attention was bad, but thanks to the new and "improved" canon....Naruto is a huge A-hole who is using victim mentality to bully people into submission.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Thank you. 

To add while Naruto did have some connection with the villains, he only knew a partial of their pain. The ONLY TnJ that makes any sense is Gaara and even then the end kind of just blew this one apart. 

Yeah, Naruto and Nagato were both orphans, but Naruto never had to scrounge for food in a war torn country that was merely a causality of war. 
Naruto and Obito both loved a girl who seems like they didn't love them, but Sakura never died and Naruto never had to face that kind of lose. They gave that Hinata which is all people talk about.
Naruto and Sasuke....again, both orphans, but Naruto never knew his clan or his parents so the lose never hit as hard. 
Naruto and Gaara...this is the only time Naruto acknowledge he actually had it better. They were both monsters and for a time everyone hated him, but Gaara was also betrayed by his own father, the village literally tried to kill him, and saw him as nothing more than a weapon. 

I can keep going. Compared to the rest of the world, Naruto had it much easier and had far more privileges. Not saying he didn't face issues, but rather the villains he fought, for the most part, had issues that were far more impactful and seem like a means to survival. 

Combined with Naruto the Last saying Naruto did everything for a rivalry game, that he didn't know what love was, and that he was always just clout chasing....then everything Naruto has done is a lie. It is all one big fat lie and that is why everyone says Naruto is a scumbag.

We thought him just wanting to be Hokage for attention was bad, but thanks to the new and "improved" canon....Naruto is a huge A-hole who is using victim mentality to bully people into submission.

Another great dose of truth right there, buddy, and further shows how the canon basically screwed the story of the series up even more than when things were screwed up as is!

[Phantom_999]

I’ll be brief, since I have work just now but I’ll make a longer reply later. The talk-no-jutsu was meant to show Naruto had some simple minded wisdom. Where it went wrong is when it was used as a cheap cop out to spread the “violence is bad” propaganda which is very hypocritical coming a shonen battle manga about ninjas, assassination, spying and war which the hypocritical main character who is supposed to be some peace bringing messiah failed to fix. Not to mention he uses it on enemies he actually cannot relate to in an attempt to have the moral high ground which a again failed miserably in its execution by the nature of the context which it was applied. More on these points later. Stay tuned

[Nate River]

I’ll be brief, since I have work just now but I’ll make a longer reply later. The talk-no-jutsu was meant to show Naruto had some simple minded wisdom. Where it went wrong is when it was used as a cheap cop out to spread the “violence is bad” propaganda which is very hypocritical coming a shonen battle manga about ninjas, assassination, spying and war which the hypocritical main character who is supposed to be some peace bringing messiah failed to fix. Not to mention he uses it on enemies he actually cannot relate to in an attempt to have the moral high ground which a again failed miserably in its execution by the nature of the context which it was applied. More on these points later. Stay tuned

 

I don’t think I’d have minded his approach as much as I did toward the end if Naruto had to answer for its obvious shortcomings. He wants to redeem every no matter how heinous their crimes (Obito, for instance), fine make him have to answer for it. In Obito’s case, this was left to mooks cheering on Kakashi (in one of the rare end game scenes where someone wore their big boy pants) only to be MIA when he holds back. If Naruto is going to redeem people like that, what’s his response to the dead and their loved ones? Gedo Mazo was so awful because it absolved him of the need to do that. Not everyone who you give a second chance honors. People blow it or spit in your face and screw you over. It’s not the naïveté or hypocrisy that bother me, it’s that Naruto is always protected from the flaws in his own belief system. He doesn’t have to answer for them and he isn’t ever burned by them. 

 

You can have Naruto be ultra-naive, but at least have him and those around him deal with it and the consequences of it. As an aside, it might have made a good way to contrast with Sasuke and made the clash of ideals at the end less…well, terrible. As it stands, Sasuke’s plan was to become a tyrant everyone hated so much they wouldn’t hate each other as if (a) people couldn’t walk and chew gum at the same time and (b) as if anyone could really sympathize or relate to such an idea. 

 

Understanding people has its limit in that reconciliation and agreement aren’t always possible. I can understand my enemy in full and the end result still may be that there is not common ground to meat on; either he loses or I do. Naruto never met that person. 

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

 
I dont think Id have minded his approach as much as I did toward the end if Naruto had to answer for its obvious shortcomings. He wants to redeem every no matter how heinous their crimes (Obito, for instance), fine make him have to answer for it. In Obitos case, this was left to mooks cheering on Kakashi (in one of the rare end game scenes where someone wore their big boy pants) only to be MIA when he holds back. If Naruto is going to redeem people like that, whats his response to the dead and their loved ones? Gedo Mazo was so awful because it absolved him of the need to do that. Not everyone who you give a second chance honors. People blow it or spit in your face and screw you over. Its not the naïveté or hypocrisy that bother me, its that Naruto is always protected from the flaws in his own belief system. He doesnt have to answer for them and he isnt ever burned by them. 
 
You can have Naruto be ultra-naive, but at least have him and those around him deal with it and the consequences of it. As an aside, it might have made a good way to contrast with Sasuke and made the clash of ideals at the end lesswell, terrible. As it stands, Sasukes plan was to become a tyrant everyone hated so much they wouldnt hate each other as if (a) people couldnt walk and chew gum at the same time and (b) as if anyone could really sympathize or relate to such an idea. 
 
Understanding people has its limit in that reconciliation and agreement arent always possible. I can understand my enemy in full and the end result still may be that there is not common ground to meat on; either he loses or I do. Naruto never met that person. 

I bet it stems a lot from editors and other crap to make Kishi do that so much with Naruto, which sucks because hes shown how Naruto can understand people who arent like him sometimes, like with how he wanted to show Tsunade she was wrong about what he could do as well as despising her initially for how she just gave up even when she had it hard but did get from what Shizune told him of the sadness she had had, or like with Inari, same with helping Konohamaru like he did.

The problem became what you described for sure, Nate. And the fact it also was overplayed BIG TIME when it didnt need to be. We likely mostly just talk so much about it now due to how the ending, even after all these years, exposed the real problems Naruto as a series had going for it.

[Nate River]

I bet it stems a lot from editors and other crap to make Kishi do that so much with Naruto, which sucks because hes shown how Naruto can understand people who arent like him sometimes, like with how he wanted to show Tsunade she was wrong about what he could do as well as despising her initially for how she just gave up even when she had it hard but did get from what Shizune told him of the sadness she had had, or like with Inari, same with helping Konohamaru like he did.

The problem became what you described for sure, Nate. And the fact it also was overplayed BIG TIME when it didnt need to be. We likely mostly just talk so much about it now due to how the ending, even after all these years, exposed the real problems Naruto as a series had going for it.

 

 

I don't know and that is an area I stay away from. Without an admission from involved parties, we don't really know all that much. The strongest argument about the editors being the issue is that there were rumors for years Kishimoto wanted to move on and do something else. In addition, the natural end of the manga feels much closer to the end of the Pain arc. There really wasn't much left for Naruto to do other than kill Tobi and retrieve Sasuke. It didn't need to be the multi-year odyssey it became. It's the reason the manga became "Sasuke" at that point. Seriously, what else was there for Naruto to do? How many arcs could mostly revolve around a "Where's Sasuke?" adventure unless they mostly centered around Sasuke.

[Derock]

It didn't need to be the multi-year odyssey it became. It's the reason the manga became "Sasuke" at that point. Seriously, what else was there for Naruto to do? How many arcs could mostly revolve around a "Where's Sasuke?" adventure unless they mostly centered around Sasuke.

 

It wasn't about Sasuke around that time (Unless you count the 5 Kage/Iron Arc). Now before we went into the Pain Arc, it was then it was all about "Sasuke". Especially during the Itachi battle arc.

[sushi.]

It wasn't about Sasuke around that time (Unless you count the 5 Kage/Iron Arc). Now before we went into the Pain Arc, it was then it was all about "Sasuke". Especially during the Itachi battle arc.

This could've been fixed easily. Naruto learned the truth about the massacre around that time. It should've prompted him to change his approach entirely when it came to helping Sasuke. Is the TnJ a therapy lesson or a sociopolitical one? I get that it started out like "hey I've been lonely too ik how you feel man", but as the corruption in the ninjaworld gets exposed that method only works as damage control. "Sasuke, you had a point, let's create a village that is actually worth defending". And soon in Boruto, Kawaki vows to change the ninja system.   Is the sequel relying on Naruto and Sasuke's failure because no one could come up with a better story? Or because it isn't fun without a gladiator game for minors? Boruto is 13 and super-saiyan because it's a shonen, but he should've been 16. I think of LoK and that I'm glad it was a bit more mature than Atla.

 

And I always thought the acknowledgement motive was immature but understandable. Naruto was a lonely 12yo but I just assumed he'd grow out of it. (Just like I thought Sakura would get her own dream as well, instead of obtaining Sasuke's heart.) There you have it, a new arc for Naruto, that would place him at equal importance as Sasuke. They are supposed to mirror each other. In the war arc, Sasuke explained his dream of becoming hokage to change the ninja system, while Naruto was still going on about acknowledgement and "enduring" the life of a ninja. I wanted Naruto to try changing it from within, and Sasuke from outside - eventually coming to an agreement, working together to create a new world and at the same time heal their trauma together. Instead, Naruto became Sasuke's savior and literally beat some sense into him. During their first VoTE fight, I remember that Sasuke would come back to Naruto had he given him an answer. But he couldn't then, couldn't with Nagato or even in their final fight. 

[Nate River]

This could've been fixed easily. Naruto learned the truth about the massacre around that time. It should've prompted him to change his approach entirely when it came to helping Sasuke. Is the TnJ a therapy lesson or a sociopolitical one? I get that it started out like "hey I've been lonely too ik how you feel man", but as the corruption in the ninjaworld gets exposed that method only works as damage control. "Sasuke, you had a point, let's create a village that is actually worth defending". And soon in Boruto, Kawaki vows to change the ninja system.   Is the sequel relying on Naruto and Sasuke's failure because no one could come up with a better story? Or because it isn't fun without a gladiator game for minors? Boruto is 13 and super-saiyan because it's a shonen, but he should've been 16. I think of LoK and that I'm glad it was a bit more mature than Atla.

 

And I always thought the acknowledgement motive was immature but understandable. Naruto was a lonely 12yo but I just assumed he'd grow out of it. (Just like I thought Sakura would get her own dream as well, instead of obtaining Sasuke's heart.) There you have it, a new arc for Naruto, that would place him at equal importance as Sasuke. They are supposed to mirror each other. In the war arc, Sasuke explained his dream of becoming hokage to change the ninja system, while Naruto was still going on about acknowledgement and "enduring" the life of a ninja. I wanted Naruto to try changing it from within, and Sasuke from outside - eventually coming to an agreement, working together to create a new world and at the same time heal their trauma together. Instead, Naruto became Sasuke's savior and literally beat some sense into him. During their first VoTE fight, I remember that Sasuke would come back to Naruto had he given him an answer. But he couldn't then, couldn't with Nagato or even in their final fight. 

 

It's probably more therapeutic than sociopolitical. I vaguely recall Naruto expressing some desire to change the system (especially after Haku's death), but it's not really how he operated. He wasn't taking active steps to change the world in a proactive fashion but reacted to events around him. Most of what he did was in response to something direct that happened to him or those close to him rather than an attempt to bring change. Given her personality and general desires this really didn't bother me and its why I ultimately stopped worrying about his Sasuke obsession's. It was understandable that someone who spend most of their life as isolated as he was would be extremely reluctant to let go of relationships (or bypass potential ones, especially if empathized with them) no matter how toxic they might be. Where my frustrated came is was the accommodation of that by other characters and the plot in general. 

 

I can't speak of Boruto since I stopped reading it awhile ago, but I think the decision to make Naruto and Sasuke's really hurts it. Naruto was an huge universe with endless possibility that could be used to generate sequels without stomping on the accomplishments of the original cast. Naruto's ending cut all those off and based on Bail's summaries it sounds like they're still fishing from the Kaguya well. Which is disappointing.

 

I think what you describe is one way that could have worked. Personally, I would have lived with Sasuke having almost any ideology that sound less stupid than what he came up with; something the audience could genuinely feel conflicted about. 

[James S Cassidy]

I like what everyone is adding and it is interesting seeing everyone's take.
A pattern I see that everyone talks about is Naruto talks a big game, but never really does anything about it. Essentially, Naruto is full of hot air. 

I think what also amazes me is that Naruto, at least when it came to Sasuke, never listened to everyone else and he thought they were wrong. "Sasuke is not like that."
Yet, most of the people he has come across has experienced what he did and they failed. It was the whole reason of the "new generation surpassing the old" motif they kept pushing.
Tsuande and Jiraiya had a friendship with Orochimaru and they both thought Orochimaru would never become evil, but he did and they failed to bring him back. Naruto basically calls them cynical and "Sasuke isn't like that," but I feel Naruto didn't really accept their friend as equal to his with Sasuke and is almost like back handed mocking "You just didn't try hard enough." Don't get me wrong I am not saying this is what they say directly, but there are many undertones of it.

Hashirama and Madara were best friends too....yet look what happened to Madara
Kakashi and Obito

All these parallels of Naruto and Sasuke relationship and Naruto continues to say "Nuh uh..,Sasuke would never do that." How many other people wanted to change the system and either died too soon or failed completely? Oh, but we are to believe Naruto can change it based on sheer force of will (of fire.) Now in Boruto we realize Naruto didn't change it...he just made it more powerful. Is Boruto going to try and change it?

Naruto talked alot about change and he did none of it. 

This is why at the core the TnJ are just cringy and pointless at this point. Like I said, the ending kind of blows all previous TnJs apart. How can Naruto preach about love when supposedly he doesn't know what love is? How can Naruto speak about change when he never changed or only changed for the worse himself? How can anyone talk about the new generation succeeding the past when not only does Naruto really contribute nothing to it, but it was mostly him piggybacking off the past? Nagato only changed because he showed Jiraiya's book. Obito, Itachi, and plenty others contributed to the nations being at peace...Naruto didn't do it...but Naruto got all the credit. 

Alot of people hate Obito and Tobirama especially, but these two did the most influence on the world whether good or bad and worse still THEY WERE RIGHT. Like Walter Peck in Ghostbusters, yeah he went about it the wrong way, but doesn't mean he was wrong in what he was doing. The Ghostbusters didn't have safety precautions in place and even the simplest malfunctions could have caused a total meltdown. So yeah, they may have went about it the wrong way, but without them alot of the stuff that wouldn't have happened or occurred without them. 

The time after Pain Arc should have been the time for Naruto to really reflect on himself and Sakura too. You could have had these characters really understand why they feel the way they do and be more confident in their decisions. Sasuke....well, I don't know. Sasuke was like a lost cause to me. Not in the sense of Naruto abandoning it, but I mean as a character to the plot. He was basically only doing what the plot needed him to do. You HAD to end the series with Naruto and Sasuke fighting. They had to be at odds with each other. He had to continue to be a threat, but Kishimoto kept solving all his issues long before that so Sasuke had to keep being an issue. 

I think Sasuke should have told Naruto.

Sasuke: "The same system you protect is the same system that kill my family. Help me, Naruto. You say I am your best friend, so help me get justice from the corrupt system that killed and betrayed my family."
Naruto should have been like: "I get it, Sasuke. I agree that you were wrong and you lost everything because of misplaced fear."
Sasuke: "Then join me. You know what it is like to be demonized for something that was not your fault. You know how harsh they treated you."
Naruto: ".....you're right, again, but....after meeting you, Sakura, Iruka, and everyone else I have come to befriend I realized that people will stop fearing when we come to an understand not through force, but through love." 
Sasuke: "If you will join me, then you are in my way."

That is how Naruto should have been. It is okay to be hopeful and idealistic, but you have to be realistic and practical as well. Naruto had no reason to believe why Sasuke was different or at least WE had no reason to believe Naruto had a reason for Sasuke to be different because we are only told they had this great friendship. If he found out the truth about Itachi and had a breakdown learning that everything he was raised on was the same system that put in the position in the first place, it would be a legit breakdown that would make someone very cynical of the system he was originally protecting and being apart of and this is where you can have the difference. Naruto and Sasuke would both agree that the system needed changing and that both knew the system was corrupt, but they had different ways to change it. Sasuke through force, Naruto through diplomacy or whatever. 

We SORT of get this idea, but it could have been so much more refined and Naruto wouldn't be seen as hypocritical just naive and changing to be realistic.




 

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

I don't know and that is an area I stay away from. Without an admission from involved parties, we don't really know all that much.

Not that I can blame you, it just feels like its the easiest thing to figure out with how the story went to crap over time since editors can sometimes really have a writer by the balls and make it tough for them to do what they want, especially in the comic and manga industries.

[sushi.]

I think Sasuke should have told Naruto.

Sasuke: "The same system you protect is the same system that kill my family. Help me, Naruto. You say I am your best friend, so help me get justice from the corrupt system that killed and betrayed my family."
Naruto should have been like: "I get it, Sasuke. I agree that you were wrong and you lost everything because of misplaced fear."
Sasuke: "Then join me. You know what it is like to be demonized for something that was not your fault. You know how harsh they treated you."
Naruto: ".....you're right, again, but....after meeting you, Sakura, Iruka, and everyone else I have come to befriend I realized that people will stop fearing when we come to an understand not through force, but through love." 
Sasuke: "If you will join me, then you are in my way."

It's pretty suspish that Naruto could have these deep philosophical talks with strangers, then the most awaited of them all ends up as fist no jutsu. With his BFF even. 

[James S Cassidy]

It's pretty suspish that Naruto could have these deep philosophical talks with strangers, then the most awaited of them all ends up as fist no jutsu. With his BFF even. 

 

Missed opportunity.

[RulesofNature]

 

My issues with Talk-no-Jutsu come down to two main issues. The first, and probably the smallest, was that after the Pain fights be became a rudderless, reactionary character and Talk-no-Jutsu became something he did. We all knew he'd do, we all knew it'd always work. It had a "here we go again" feel to it and felt empty. This is less a talk-no-jutsu problem and more of a issue of Naruto accomplishing he primary goals in all but name only long before the series reached its conclusion, but it drug the talking with it. 

 

The second, and far bigger issue, is that it was surface level junk with obvious flaws that the series took great pains to avoid dealing with. Obito's was easily the worst. I still can't think of a more cringe inducing line Obito is a cool guy. 

I honestly feel it dug into a deeper flaw with Naruto as a character. I mean, the series tried to make him a feely genius rather than a thinky one. That this guy might be an idiot, but he was empathetic allowing him to understand the hearts of others. But really, it was all a lie. When it came to Talk-no-justu, it eventually became Naruto seeing himself in others. How they were meant to be like him, except they broke bad. To me, the fact Naruto would relate opponents back to his own feelings didn't feel empathetic. He wasn't putting himself in their shoes, he was thinking they were wearing the same shoes as he was. It took away his empathy, and made him more self-centered as a result.

 

The Talk-no-jutsu is pretty much the same thing as Kira Yamato's "pacifism" in Gundam SEED Destiny. Sure, it looks and sounds good on paper, but the second you start analyzing it things fall apart. With Kira, we at least got some good crossover games that tackled these things and at times even gave him good character growth. Even effin' Lacus ended up rebutting his "fighting is bad" arguments in one game. But that happened because of the nature of those games. They weren't about to sacrifice the integrity of other series and their leads just to make Kira look good. But with Naruto... that'll never happen.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

I honestly feel it dug into a deeper flaw with Naruto as a character. I mean, the series tried to make him a feely genius rather than a thinky one. That this guy might be an idiot, but he was empathetic allowing him to understand the hearts of others. But really, it was all a lie. When it came to Talk-no-justu, it eventually became Naruto seeing himself in others. How they were meant to be like him, except they broke bad. To me, the fact Naruto would relate opponents back to his own feelings didn't feel empathetic. He wasn't putting himself in their shoes, he was thinking they were wearing the same shoes as he was. It took away his empathy, and made him more self-centered as a result.
 
The Talk-no-jutsu is pretty much the same thing as Kira Yamato's "pacifism" in Gundam SEED Destiny. Sure, it looks and sounds good on paper, but the second you start analyzing it things fall apart. With Kira, we at least got some good crossover games that tackled these things and at times even gave him good character growth. Even effin' Lacus ended up rebutting his "fighting is bad" arguments in one game. But that happened because of the nature of those games. They weren't about to sacrifice the integrity of other series and their leads just to make Kira look good. But with Naruto... that'll never happen.

Good way to look at it, Rules

[RulesofNature]

Good way to look at it, Rules

Thanks.

 

I mean, what does that really say about Naruto? That the antagonists he sees himself in are worthy of sympathy and aren't really that bad despite their crimes? That Obito really is the coolest guy ever? But those he doesn't see himself in, like Hidan, deserve to be killed without any sympathy in the name of revenge? That doesn't make Naruto look good, it makes him look egotistical. Like he's not seeing them for who they are. He sees them as extensions of himself, he's Talk-no-jutsuing himself and not in a way where he's trying to keep his own darkness in check.

 

And then if you remember that Naruto was partially based on Kishi himself...there's something really interesting to be said there.