54175 replies to this topic

[NaruSaku fan in Kentucky]

If SS was a drug... it would be cocaine.

[Phantom_999]

Not to mention, Kishi hasn't been exactly good to Hinata either. He called her confession suicidal, and told that one guy who liked her he just likes big boobies. You can really tell Kishi never cared for her, at all, and has often depicted her as pathetic. Hell, Kishi's Hinata's love for Naruto is her not actually seeing Naruto. She sees Naruto as the sad little boy on the swing, an image she uses to empower herself and believes that when push comes to shove she will save him. In a sense, she's the one character that never acknowledges who Naruto has become, leading to the character assassination needed to make him her boytoy.
 
But they'll refuse to believe this, just like SS refuses to admit Kishi said the pairing was like a drug addiction and he couldn't understand how they got together.

Yup. How often did she appear in the manga? More importantly, when was she a relevant factor to the story?

[DrK]

If SS was a drug... it would be cocaine.

But cocaine is a hell of a drug. As in, it's a very effective drug, while SS is not a very effective couple

[RulesofNature]

Yup. How often did she appear in the manga? More importantly, when was she a relevant factor to the story?

 

What is it, 40 pages she appeared on? Roughly 2.5 chapters worth of showtime, most of it doing stuff like showing she doesn't believe Naruto can succeed, being surprised when he does, caring for Naruto at the expense of others, putting others in danger with her obsession, then finally somehow having his kids.

[NaruSaku fan in Kentucky]

But cocaine is a hell of a drug. As in, it's a very effective drug, while SS is not a very effective couple

Okay... Heroin?

[jak123]

Okay... Heroin?

No, they would be really bad weed.

[Moon_Girl]

NaruHina and SasuSaku are comparable to Meth.

[LuckyChi7]

NaruHina and SasuSaku are comparable to Meth.

 

 

very true!

 

 

haven't seen you in a while  

[dl316bh]

What is it, 40 pages she appeared on? Roughly 2.5 chapters worth of showtime, most of it doing stuff like showing she doesn't believe Naruto can succeed, being surprised when he does, caring for Naruto at the expense of others, putting others in danger with her obsession, then finally somehow having his kids.

 

If it's not forty total, it's not too much more. Which is what always made it astonishing to me that she was as popular as she was. She's never around. And, I mean, you could say it was just the large boobs - I've seen people claim that - but I've known women who liked both her and the NaruHina pairing. I'm still friends with one (though she's admitted to me in the past that by the end she was only reading the series because of sunk cost and wasn't even happy with the ending or how her pairing was canonized). What was the appeal? The cuteness? The loyalty? Some desire to see the nice girl win over the tsundere for once? Was the absence of character the appeal, since it allows the reader to decide most of their personality for themselves?

 

Everybody complains about shallow characters from time to time, but Hinata's one of a few that proves you don't need depth to be crazy popular. She had about as much character depth as a puddle.

[RulesofNature]

 

If it's not forty total, it's not too much more. Which is what always made it astonishing to me that she was as popular as she was. She's never around. And, I mean, you could say it was just the large boobs - I've seen people claim that - but I've known women who liked both her and the NaruHina pairing. I'm still friends with one (though she's admitted to me in the past that by the end she was only reading the series because of sunk cost and wasn't even happy with the ending or how her pairing was canonized). What was the appeal? The cuteness? The loyalty? Some desire to see the nice girl win over the tsundere for once? Was the absence of character the appeal, since it allows the reader to decide most of their personality for themselves?

 

Everybody complains about shallow characters from time to time, but Hinata's one of a few that proves you don't need depth to be crazy popular. She had about as much character depth as a puddle.

 

I think a major part of it was also something a lot of anime suffered from at the time. Fanfiction was a lot more common and people made crap up. They crap they made up ended up being passed around as canon. That's how we end up with stuff like Ranma Saotome's mother being obsessed with having grandchildren, Inuyasha being obsessed with ramen or Sailor Moon becomes a dictator that the world is forced to obey through mind control. Naruto was hit pretty hard by this with an evil village council making Naruto's life a living hell, being assaulted by the villagers over Kyuubi, or (my favorite) Naruto is actually super skilled but had his education tampered with/never showed off his true abilities because he thought everyone would be afraid of him.

 

Not to mention how an anime adaptation can vastly change characters. And with watching anime online being far more difficult (hell, I remember downloading a 40mb volume of manga being a major hassle over dialup. I remember the nights leaving my PC on to do so, only to find my connection was lost while I was asleep), if something seemed off you could just pass it off as "it's like this in the anime," and that's not even counting how fan translations themselves could be faulty or full-on weeb subs. I mean, check this out.

 

http://ranmarelated....ween-manga.html

 

People made Naruto's life worse than it actually was, and then made Hinata look better. Hell, people would go out of their way to make Part 1 Sakura look more annoying, Sasuke far more egotistical while Kakashi would fawn over his prized student. As such, the North American communities views on canon ended up being distorted.

 

Then there's how the anime and some games do glorify Hinata. I remember hearing about this one mission where Sai hears the rest of the girls bad mouthing Naruto only to conclude Hinata's an angel.

 

This happened when Naruto was at the height of it's popularity,

Edited by RulesofNature, 29 December 2018 - 04:12 AM.

[KClaws_2]

That's the thing. This wasn't on a Naruto site. This was one a One-Punch Man about pairings and whether or not they should have happen. I voted against confirmed pairings and just let the fans make their own ideas, but if I had to choose I would go with SaitamaxFubuki. It is still the one that would work the best and it turned into an argument about the Naruto pairings because they said Saitama should be with Tornado because it is like SasuSaku.

 

If there is one thing I hated above all else after this pairing debacle is that this gave fans who like the canon pairings to demand and argue that other couples be canon because it reminds them of NH/SS. There had been a debate in Food Wars that Megumi should end up with Soma for a while, because she was so nice and tried so hard. I even saw one comment saying "If we could make it happen with Naruto, why not here?" Not only do they not take the author's preference into consideration, but they think it's okay to turn a story into a popularity contest (and admit that's what happened to Naruto). 

 

My response: Shut up, let the author do what he or she wants, and then make a judgement.

 

I don't believe Naruto's problems stem from the pairings. It stems from it becoming a product, something for the company to milk dry. This problem is rooted as early as the Chunin arc of the story... hell, probably since it's conception as there was a lot of comments by the editor to make it sell. Naruto was designed to be popular, case closed, and because of that it could never tell the story it needed to tell. Instead it told the story the people publishing it thought the audience wanted.

Oh yeah, that was very much the problem in the beginning, especially when you consider the pilot didn't even have ninjas in them, or any of the characters that would appear later. A product like that is bound to crash and burn eventually. For most it started around the War Arc, but I held out (misplaced) hope. I guess I was kind of like Homer when Lisa sent his pork roast down the street and eventually fly into the sky

 

"It's still good, it's still good!"

 

Okay... Heroin?

Based on what I know about drugs (not personal experience, btw), I think Heroin perfectly describes NH. Does anyone remember that footage from when those cops pulled over a couple who OD'd on heroin, and were practically comatose? That's NH to me in a nutshell.

 

If it was meth, the two would be fighting all the time and throwing things at each other, and driving tanks all over Konoha (kind of like that guy in San Diego years ago).

 

SS on the other hand is PCP. A drug so bad (random defacation, biting extremities off and streaking, among other things) that I wonder how it was sold to you in the first place.

 

 

If it's not forty total, it's not too much more. Which is what always made it astonishing to me that she was as popular as she was. She's never around. And, I mean, you could say it was just the large boobs - I've seen people claim that - but I've known women who liked both her and the NaruHina pairing. I'm still friends with one (though she's admitted to me in the past that by the end she was only reading the series because of sunk cost and wasn't even happy with the ending or how her pairing was canonized). What was the appeal? The cuteness? The loyalty? Some desire to see the nice girl win over the tsundere for once? Was the absence of character the appeal, since it allows the reader to decide most of their personality for themselves?

 

Everybody complains about shallow characters from time to time, but Hinata's one of a few that proves you don't need depth to be crazy popular. She had about as much character depth as a puddle.

 

I will never understand her popularity. I understand the appeal of her POTENTIAL, but potential means diddly squat if you don't show results. It's like someone was told they had great potential as an MMA figher, but instead of training and putting in the effort, they bribe the judges to give them the belt. 

 

I still don't understand why she's viewed as this sexual figure. There are so many other anime out there where the girls are curvier, show more skin and have actual personalities (even bad ones are better than whatever Hinata has going for her).

 

They see this in Hinata:

 

Before the ending, I saw this:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, I didn't forget to post the image, that space literally represents how I saw Hinata back then.

 

 

But AFTER the ending:

 

 

I think a major part of it was also something a lot of anime suffered from at the time. Fanfiction was a lot more common and people made crap up. They crap they made up ended up being passed around as canon. That's how we end up with stuff like Ranma Saotome's mother being obsessed with having grandchildren, Inuyasha being obsessed with ramen or Sailor Moon becomes a dictator that the world is forced to obey through mind control. Naruto was hit pretty hard by this with an evil village council making Naruto's life a living hell, being assaulted by the villagers over Kyuubi, or (my favorite) Naruto is actually super skilled but had his education tampered with/never showed off his true abilities because he thought everyone would be afraid of him.

 

Not to mention how an anime adaptation can vastly change characters. And with watching anime online being far more difficult (hell, I remember downloading a 40mb volume of manga being a major hassle over dialup. I remember the nights leaving my PC on to do so, only to find my connection was lost while I was asleep), if something seemed off you could just pass it off as "it's like this in the anime," and that's not even counting how fan translations themselves could be faulty or full-on weeb subs. I mean, check this out.

 

http://ranmarelated....ween-manga.html

 

People made Naruto's life worse than it actually was, and then made Hinata look better. Hell, people would go out of their way to make Part 1 Sakura look more annoying, Sasuke far more egotistical while Kakashi would fawn over his prized student. As such, the North American communities views on canon ended up being distorted.

 

Then there's how the anime and some games do glorify Hinata. I remember hearing about this one mission where Sai hears the rest of the girls bad mouthing Naruto only to conclude Hinata's an angel.

 

This happened when Naruto was at the height of it's popularity,

Really? I remember back then that fanfiction was regularly torn to shreds by fandoms all over. Only recently has fanfiction come to some attention with many authors confessing they do fanfiction in their spare time and...FiftyShades (Why? WHY!?)

 

Still, with Naruto fans have a habit of filling in the blanks with their own head canons. 

 

I think the fillers would be more to blame, as most tried to explain the different time skips and give canon-in-training characters some more time in the spotlight. They even added extra to The Last period, making the NH wedding the final episode and not bothering to animate chapter 700.

[dl316bh]

I will never understand her popularity. I understand the appeal of her POTENTIAL, but potential means diddly squat if you don't show results. It's like someone was told they had great potential as an MMA figher, but instead of training and putting in the effort, they bribe the judges to give them the belt. 

 

I still don't understand why she's viewed as this sexual figure. There are so many other anime out there where the girls are curvier, show more skin and have actual personalities (even bad ones are better than whatever Hinata has going for her).

 

They see this in Hinata:

 

Before the ending, I saw this:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, I didn't forget to post the image, that space literally represents how I saw Hinata back then.

 

 

But AFTER the ending:

 

 

Hey now! That's very hurtful to say... about Jar Jar. Even he had more character.

 

I genuinely don't even get what the potential was for the same reason I never hated her. There wasn't enough there to gauge her potential as a character or to hate. She has as much development or screen time as the average background friend in some manga. What we had to go on consisted of her outfits, some shyness, hiding behind poles and one or two fight scenes where she either barely held her own or got punked. Sure, something could conceivably be made of her, but you'd almost need to make it from scratch, because there's just not enough there. Worse still, her personality really makes that hard. What can you really do with a Yamato Nadeshiko who doesn't even seem to have any real hobbies or interests outside of Naruto and has no real fight capabilities without changing it and making some stuff up whole cloth? Outside of her super eyes - always with the kittening eyes in this series - she doesn't have much to work with and never compared in skill to most of the other background ninja friends.

 

I do just generally think part of it was wanting to see the "nice girl" beat the tsundere for once, because I've seen a fair bit of saltiness over the years about that, despite the fact that the default nice girls some favor are also painfully boring, character-wise, which is why they aren't the kittening leads, and despite the fact they forget these are Japanese product and the tsundere hitting the dumb love interest comes from a cultural love of slapstick and is meant to be comedy. The Downtown crew do the No Laughing challenge every year and their punishment games for a reason. I doubt they get off on being hit.

 

 

Really? I remember back then that fanfiction was regularly torn to shreds by fandoms all over. Only recently has fanfiction come to some attention with many authors confessing they do fanfiction in their spare time and...FiftyShades (Why? WHY!?)

 

Still, with Naruto fans have a habit of filling in the blanks with their own head canons.

 

Yeah, fanfiction's only started to gain some acceptance recently, in my opinion. I've read fanfiction since the early 2000's and it always had a shaky reputation.  I have seen what RulesofNature describes happen on occasion, though, where some parts did sort of catch in the collective consciousness, or at least caught on within fandom and sort of became "fanon". I remember an early example being in DBZ fanfics where Saiyans and their mates could communicate telepathically. Couldn't tell you where it started but it picked up steam for a while (hell, maybe it's still a thing, I haven't read DBZ fanfiction in thirteen or fourteen years). I don't think anyone in that case was fooled into thinking it might have been a thing in canon, though.

 

Evangelion has either the Peggy Sue or the fix fic, though to be fair that's partly because, you know, what the hell else do you do with the end of that particular hot mess and was at least sort of canonized in recent years with what the Rebuild films seemed to be doing.

 

 

I even saw one comment saying "If we could make it happen with Naruto, why not here?" Not only do they not take the author's preference into consideration, but they think it's okay to turn a story into a popularity contest (and admit that's what happened to Naruto).

 

That's sort of the problem with allowing a group to think something happened because of their influence. They get super cocky, bolder and start thinking they can act however they want because it will force people to give them what they want. This behavior is getting really bad in the video game sphere right now. See the recent Spider-Man mess with Insomniac, where people demanded the Sam Raimi suit - because question mark, I mean the damn thing is just the stock Spider-Man suit with a slightly different symbol and raised webbing - and acted like spoiled pieces of kitten, not realizing or not caring there were very obviously rights issues involved given how screwy the Spider-Man film rights can be. Then the suit came out and they claimed victory, got smug, and started wondering what else they could force to happen, completely ignoring the controversy had gone on for no more than a week or two, the fact you can't just pump something like that out and get it certified by Sony that freaking quickly and the fact it was obviously in the works all along and they just couldn't talk about it.

 

They should have received nothing, but I suppose when you make something like that you're probably not going to just keep from releasing it because fans are pricks.

[James S Cassidy]

 

What is it, 40 pages she appeared on? Roughly 2.5 chapters worth of showtime, most of it doing stuff like showing she doesn't believe Naruto can succeed, being surprised when he does, caring for Naruto at the expense of others, putting others in danger with her obsession, then finally somehow having his kids

 

 

Just to put things in perspective Hinata was on less than 40 pages of the manga.

Tenten, who is considered to not even be a secondary character, appeared on 42+ pages of the manga–before the time-skip alone.

Hinata isn’t even a secondary character. She is a background character, with the least importance of any Konoha 12 girl
 

 

 

 

If there is one thing I hated above all else after this pairing debacle is that this gave fans who like the canon pairings to demand and argue that other couples be canon because it reminds them of NH/SS. There had been a debate in Food Wars that Megumi should end up with Soma for a while, because she was so nice and tried so hard. I even saw one comment saying "If we could make it happen with Naruto, why not here?" Not only do they not take the author's preference into consideration, but they think it's okay to turn a story into a popularity contest (and admit that's what happened to Naruto). 

 

My response: Shut up, let the author do what he or she wants, and then make a judgement.

Bold: And yet they turn to us and tell us to "Shut up and let the author do what he or she wants."

This is why I want Kishimoto to just come in and make NH and SS get a divorce and watch them lost their minds. They only practice what they preach when things go in their favor. When it doesn't they cry louder than us. Watch as if they did get a divorce, they raise petitions that say "retcon the NH/SS divorce or we won't buy the manga anymore." I want Kishimoto to just troll and say "Well, I said that would get together...never said they would stay together." Hashtag Monkey's paw.
 

Oh yeah, that was very much the problem in the beginning, especially when you consider the pilot didn't even have ninjas in them, or any of the characters that would appear later. A product like that is bound to crash and burn eventually. For most it started around the War Arc, but I held out (misplaced) hope. I guess I was kind of like Homer when Lisa sent his pork roast down the street and eventually fly into the sky

 

Studio Pierrot leaders: "You know, Kishimoto, I think we should do Sakura a whole arc and add justice to her character.....WHEN PIGS FLY"
*pigs fly*
Fans: "Will you be giving her that justice now, Pierrot?"
SP Leaders: "Mmmm....no, we still prefer not."
 

"It's still good, it's still good!"

 

I tried oe like that. "It's okay...Kishimoto will make it all work out in the end. The ending is the most important."

Boy....was I wrong.
 

I will never understand her popularity. I understand the appeal of her POTENTIAL, but potential means diddly squat if you don't show results. It's like someone was told they had great potential as an MMA figher, but instead of training and putting in the effort, they bribe the judges to give them the belt. 

 

I still don't understand why she's viewed as this sexual figure. There are so many other anime out there where the girls are curvier, show more skin and have actual personalities (even bad ones are better than whatever Hinata has going for her).

 

 

If I have said it a thousand times....I swear to all the Gods both real and imaginary that someone sold their soul to the devil to make her popular because even characters that almost exactly like her are not this popular. Only in Naruto are these anomalies occurring.

A proender will love Hinata and hate Sakura in Naruto.

But show any other series and they will love the Sakura-like character and hate the Hinata-like character. Even in Romance manga.
 

Really? I remember back then that fanfiction was regularly torn to shreds by fandoms all over. Only recently has fanfiction come to some attention with many authors confessing they do fanfiction in their spare time and...FiftyShades (Why? WHY!?)

 

 

 

Because realize there is no risk in fanfiction. It is a low risk, high reward.
If it is good: "Oh cool, this fanfiction is awesome."
If it is bad: "Oh this sucks, but hey that's what you get from fanfictions. You don't go to McDonald's and expect a prime cut rib."
 

That's sort of the problem with allowing a group to think something happened because of their influence. They get super cocky, bolder and start thinking they can act however they want because it will force people to give them what they want. This behavior is getting really bad in the video game sphere right now. See the recent Spider-Man mess with Insomniac, where people demanded the Sam Raimi suit - because question mark, I mean the damn thing is just the stock Spider-Man suit with a slightly different symbol and raised webbing - and acted like spoiled pieces of kitten, not realizing or not caring there were very obviously rights issues involved given how screwy the Spider-Man film rights can be. Then the suit came out and they claimed victory, got smug, and started wondering what else they could force to happen, completely ignoring the controversy had gone on for no more than a week or two, the fact you can't just pump something like that out and get it certified by Sony that freaking quickly and the fact it was obviously in the works all along and they just couldn't talk about it.

 

They should have received nothing, but I suppose when you make something like that you're probably not going to just keep from releasing it because fans are pricks.

The latest generation has an entitlement problem. Actually, both the newer and the baby boomers have this entitlement mindset that they are "owed" everything. Meanwhile, my generation is smack dab in the middle, has to hear it from both sides, and all we want is to just have what we earned.

 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 29 December 2018 - 06:53 PM.

[VanitasDS76491]

If there is one thing I hated above all else after this pairing debacle is that this gave fans who like the canon pairings to demand and argue that other couples be canon because it reminds them of NH/SS. There had been a debate in Food Wars that Megumi should end up with Soma for a while, because she was so nice and tried so hard. I even saw one comment saying "If we could make it happen with Naruto, why not here?" Not only do they not take the author's preference into consideration, but they think it's okay to turn a story into a popularity contest (and admit that's what happened to Naruto). 
 
My response: Shut up, let the author do what he or she wants, and then make a judgement.
 

Oh yeah, that was very much the problem in the beginning, especially when you consider the pilot didn't even have ninjas in them, or any of the characters that would appear later. A product like that is bound to crash and burn eventually. For most it started around the War Arc, but I held out (misplaced) hope. I guess I was kind of like Homer when Lisa sent his pork roast down the street and eventually fly into the sky
 
"It's still good, it's still good!"
 

Based on what I know about drugs (not personal experience, btw), I think Heroin perfectly describes NH. Does anyone remember that footage from when those cops pulled over a couple who OD'd on heroin, and were practically comatose? That's NH to me in a nutshell.
 
If it was meth, the two would be fighting all the time and throwing things at each other, and driving tanks all over Konoha (kind of like that guy in San Diego years ago).
 
SS on the other hand is PCP. A drug so bad (random defacation, biting extremities off and streaking, among other things) that I wonder how it was sold to you in the first place.
 

 
I will never understand her popularity. I understand the appeal of her POTENTIAL, but potential means diddly squat if you don't show results. It's like someone was told they had great potential as an MMA figher, but instead of training and putting in the effort, they bribe the judges to give them the belt. 
 
I still don't understand why she's viewed as this sexual figure. There are so many other anime out there where the girls are curvier, show more skin and have actual personalities (even bad ones are better than whatever Hinata has going for her).
 
They see this in Hinata:

 
Before the ending, I saw this:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
No, I didn't forget to post the image, that space literally represents how I saw Hinata back then.
 
 
But AFTER the ending:

 

Really? I remember back then that fanfiction was regularly torn to shreds by fandoms all over. Only recently has fanfiction come to some attention with many authors confessing they do fanfiction in their spare time and...FiftyShades (Why? WHY!?)
 
Still, with Naruto fans have a habit of filling in the blanks with their own head canons. 
 
I think the fillers would be more to blame, as most tried to explain the different time skips and give canon-in-training characters some more time in the spotlight. They even added extra to The Last period, making the NH wedding the final episode and not bothering to animate chapter 700.

I'm mad that they think hinata is on wonderwoman level and hinata is nowhere near that wonder woman is infinity better than hinata and would kitten her up royally.

[NaruSaku fan in Kentucky]

Hinata is Bella Swan 2.0.

[jak123]

Hinata is Bella Swan 2.0.

That's an insult to Bella Swan. As crappy as she and Twilight was, she at least had development and screentime. Hinata did not. 

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

Hinata is Bella Swan 2.0.

Just replace Edward and Jacob with Boruto's dad and Toneri.
 

That's an insult to Bella Swan. As crappy as she and Twilight was, she at least had development and screentime. Hinata did not. 

Not to mention that Breaking Dawn Part 2 showed that she COULD kick butt if she really wanted to.

[Kagomaru]

That's an insult to Bella Swan. As crappy as she and Twilight was, she at least had development and screentime. Hinata did not.

Okay, the latter I can agree with but the former? Hell no. She had the personality and the vapid mind of a stump from start to finish.

[Moon_Girl]

 

 

very true!

 

 

haven't seen you in a while

I lurk here and there. 

[jak123]

Okay, the latter I can agree with but the former? Hell no. She had the personality and the vapid mind of a stump from start to finish.

And that was still more development than Hinata.