54175 replies to this topic

[Dalton.T.R]

Does anybody know if that thread titled "NaruSaku Development" is still on the site? I think it was posted by Slextrim way way back like a few months before the end of the manga. It could be really useful for my Mages of the North series where I re-do NaruSaku as much as legally possible.

[Qia]

Does anybody know if that thread titled "NaruSaku Development" is still on the site? I think it was posted by Slextrim way way back like a few months before the end of the manga. It could be really useful for my Mages of the North series where I re-do NaruSaku as much as legally possible.

http://www.narusaku....showtopic=12836

[Dalton.T.R]

Thanks! 

[Gurmeet]

I think the point to understand (Ignoring the personal jabs here) is that Sasuke significantly changed. 699 Sasuke is different. He has come to terms with things, he understands he was in the wrong. He was jailed for a time, before his journey of redemption. After so many chapters of spiraling into darkness, he is finally working on redemption. I suspect very few would choose Sasuke but not many can claim attachment to someone who spiraled into darkness that they loved. We can't really equate a Sasuke in real life, and I think if you loved someone like that, truly did, even if you didn't want to be with them, you would want the best for them.
 
Sasuke is always going to be socially stunted. This doesn't excuse his behavior, but explains it. SS isn't something I ship for that reason (as well as the angst), but as writing, it's pretty fascinating. 
 

 
693, really. Or anything in the 600s. Or even the False Confession, and when she is about to take him down. 
 
This isn't moved by shallow love he looks cool.
 
This is genuine love. 
 
Even her first confession touches on this.
 
Kakashi's words touch on this when he speaks to the three in the mid 600s.
 
A lot of places. 
 
I would even show that the Forest of Death scene where she tries to bring Sasuke out of the darkness. Not for some shallow superficial selfish reasons, but because she cares.

love isn't spontaneous.It takes time. Every relationship have 2 steps friendship and love.If we ask the question why Sakura was in love with saskue we never get any scenes all we could do is interpt.The forest of death scene can be interpted as it was first step towards friendship and remind you after that scene she was protecting both saskue and Naruto. Before the forest of death scene all we know that her love for him was because he is cool.Why I said Sakura love is a obsession because saskue has rejected her three times that he doesn't love her yet she is like you love me.If it was genuine love she would have let go of him after she had saved from his darkness.love is not binding someone love is all about letting go. The things you are talking about in 600s and 693 are mere tropes to justify the ending.Kakashi's words can be interpted by different fans in different meanings.

Edited by Gurmeet, 21 September 2017 - 04:05 AM.

[Phantom_999]

Alright there is something I would like to point out. Post NH and SS marriage, Naruto and Sakura have never interacted at all, at least to my knowledge, and in No meaningful way if they did. So apparently they are supposed to be as close friends as they ever were yet they don't display A SINGLE ASPECT of their relationship they had before. So can someone tell me why that is? Why are Naruto and Sakura supposed to be each other's best friend (second best in naruto's case) yet act like they are complete strangers in the new series. Better yet why don't Hinata and Naruto or Sakura and Sasuke have any friendly or casual interactions that show they are completely comfortable around each other and their relationships are one  like they have to walk on eggshells around each other? These couples are supposed to be in love yet THEY BOTH SEEM LIKE parties that were in an arranged marriage against their will. I have more to say on this topic later, as I'm at work right

Edited by Phantom_999, 21 September 2017 - 07:55 PM.

[Legend054]

The Genjutsu -isn't- needed. It was the device chosen for the movie to progress it forward. They could have had Hinata just explain it out and offer the scarf. If you cannot understand love why would you put more thought into it? Obliviousness realizing love is not a new thing or theme. The plot is also driving Naruto, noticeably for both Sasuke and Naruto they are focused on their goals. Only after their goals are complete does love enter. 

 

and without that device nh wouldn't have worked, so it was very much needed.

it took a genjutsu for naruto to fall in love with hinata plus sakura's help. they're

saying there was no other way to make naruto love hinata without being manipulated by a genjutsu and without

being convinced by sakura. his love for hinata was never there. but he already had feelings for sakura

since part 1 (he tried to kiss her. who's to say he doesn't know what love is?) and it has grown stronger in part 2.

[lupina]

1. Yes, you have been.

 

 

2. Analyzer: "(...) or that Naruto loved Sakura at that Point anymore."

Analyzer: "The Point is, Naruto never loved Sakura."

 

You just contradicted yourself. (Just in case: Please explain how reasoned and developed feelings are just a "crush", while silent admiration for someone you barely know is "real love". Thanks.)

Naruto presented Sakura as his girlfriend in front of his father, well knowing that this wasn't yet the case, wich is why he answered the way he did.

[Kagomaru]

Alright there is something I would like to point out. Post NH and SS marriage, Naruto and Sakura have never interacted at all, at least to my knowledge, and in No meaningful way if they did. So apparently they are supposed to be as close friends as they ever were yet they don't dislay A SINGLE ASPECT of they relationship they had before. So can some one tell me why that is? Why are Naruto and Sakura supposed to be each other's best friend (second best in naruto's case) yet act like they are complete strangers in the new series. Better yet why don't Hinata and Naruto or Sakura and Sasuke have any friendly or casul interactions that show thay are completely comfortable around each other abd their relationship is one thaytthey have to walk on egg shells around eachother? These couples are supposed to be in love yet THEY BOTH SEEM LIKE parties that were in an arranged marriage agaist their will. I have more to say on this topic later, as I'm at work right

Which may be a subtle representation of Kishi's rebellion against the series' current direction and him expressing a message to the fans through his work.

[The Doctor forever]

1. Yes, you have been.

 

 

2. Analyzer: "(...) or that Naruto loved Sakura at that Point anymore."

Analyzer: "The Point is, Naruto never loved Sakura."

 

You just contradicted yourself. (Just in case: Please explain how reasoned and developed feelings are just a "crush", while silent admiration for someone you barely know is "real love". Thanks.)

Naruto presented Sakura as his girlfriend in front of his father, well knowing that this wasn't yet the case, wich is why he answered the way he did.

lupina lets just all agree that Naruto is a women user and not at all a hero remember he has let Orochimaru go free and pretended to know what love is to trick people.

 

Unlike with another story that has been going on for over 50 years now Doctor Who which is for kids.

 

Doctor Who the runaway bride is perhaps one of the most terrifying moments in the history of Doctor Who. We see our hero, our champion, The Doctor looking down on genocide with barely a care. The 4th hesitated when he had the chance to do the same to the Daleks, 10 eradicated the Rancross without blinking. This is why Doctor Who is the greatest sci fi series of all time, it's hero is willing to do whatever is necessary to safeguard life, even if it means doing the unthinkable. I remember a concept from Terry Pratchett 'Pray you're never at the mercy of a good man, he'll kill you with hardly a word'.

 

I mean I love it when The Doctor shows no bright side (The evil family and Raknoss) and he just looks up to the screen like "No mercy, not this time". SO GOOD.

 

This is why, as much as I would trust the Doctor, as much as I love the Doctor, there is no hero in existence that would terrify me more than this man with a screwdriver and a box.

 

As he would say. "A good man doesn't need rules today isn't a good day to find out why I have so many."

 

The Doctor wouldn't need to be a powerful god to bring Naruto down he will just simple words, just a few.

[Gurmeet]

1: Except there's one instance in the 600's...and zero in the 500's. I've not been actually spoonfed pages, chapters, or panels a dozen times over, in any numerous quantity. You can list the instances, but I have not been thrown chapters at, or pages, or much else. 
 
2: The thing is Naruto was never in love with Sakura. I would not try to prove he fell out of love, it never happened. I would actually turn around and use both Minato instances in the 600s to make this point. He could have mentioned Sakura as the girl before his father left. He did not. In fairness Hinata was not mentioned either, but an in line explanation is perfectly conjurable up in that Naruto did not understand his feelings in the Last. 
 

 
The problem with this is we are assuming that Sakura does not assume Sasuke is a friend. Mutuality does not preclude the next step. We know Sakura's early love is shallow, but her later love was genuine care and a wish to save him from the darkness. We can source these differences. No, genuine love does not mean you necessarily let someone go after she saved him from his darkness. All of the obstacles precluding a relationship from happening are removed, you ask and the person says yes...what exactly is there to let go? If Sasuke had spoken in a denial, then yes, but he did not. 
 
We can have different interpretations, but a solid interpretation is going to be in line with the text and with what comes after, and takes in effect the context. 
 

 
They interact in Gaiden?
 
It's because the future stuff isn't about them. Naruto is busy as Hokage. Sakura is busy. Sasuke is busy. Team 7 stuff is going to be very limited. It makes sense. 
 
I don't see any of the walking on egg shells stuff you see at all.

we can go round and round on the same topic.Just answer the simple question why Sakura loved Saskue don't assume.

[lupina]

I'm not responsible of your choice of words.

When I reed your Posts I always got the Impression that you choose them very carefully. I could say that your inconsistency on that point reveals that you do know that Narutos' love for Sakura is not just a crush like you claim, but try to convince yourself otherwise because it wouldn't fit your narrative.

But that's just speculation on my part.

 

 

1. You can go back and reread the countless conversations you had with other users here for months about the exact same subject. The last one I remember was with the user "Thought with love".

 

 

2. You clairified it by saying "it is just a crush", what is not a clarification. It is a statement you made because you assume it has to be that way, since Naruto is supposed to be in love with Hinata in "The Last" and there is no other way any of this makes sense if his love for Sakura was more than just a crush, even if it has been presented otherwise.

"Kishimoto/SJ/His Editors" have changed their mind" is not an option for you, even if evidence (his contradicting interviews and the constant developement of Narutos' and Sakuras' relationship - only to have Naruto suddenly fall for a Girl he barely knew, appeared in less than 20 (?) chapters and ignored for most of the time) suggests otherwise.

 

- The reason why Naruto loves Sakura is stated in chapter 3. He might be phsically attracted to her, but that's not the reason he likes her.

- This makes no sense, since Sasuke never cared about Sakura in the first place. Not as a friend, nor a love interest.

 

3. The so called "Proud failure speech" tells us why Hinata likes and is inspired by Naruto. That she knows "the real Naruto" is an Interpretation of yours, wich can't be backed up wich factual evidence. Naruto being a failure and not a Genius (but dosen't let himself hold down by that) is prety common knowledge to ... everyone who knows him?

Edited by lupina, 21 September 2017 - 01:56 PM.

[Gurmeet]

One think i am sure the chapters from 600s we're brilliant marketing strategy making two fandom clash and reaping the profits. It would be best to leave an open ending but they divided the whole fandom.

[Gurmeet]

I'm not responsible of your choice of words.
When I reed your Posts I always got the Impression that you choose them very carefully. I could say that your inconsistency on that point reveals that you do know that Narutos' love for Sakura is not just a crush like you claim, but try to convince yourself otherwise because it wouldn't fit your narrative.
But that's just speculation on my part.
 
 
1. You can go back and reread the countless conversations you had with other users here for months about the exact same subject. The last one I remember was with the user "Thought with love".
 
 
2. You clairified it by saying "it is just a crush", what is not a clarification. It is a statement you made because you assume it has to be that way, since Naruto is supposed to be in love with Hinata in "The Last" and there is no other way any of this makes sense if his love for Sakura was more than just a crush, even if it has been presented otherwise.
"Kishimoto/SJ/His Editors" have changed their mind" is not an option for you, even if evidence (his contradicting interviews and the constant developement of Narutos' and Sakuras' relationship - only to have Naruto suddenly fall for a Girl he barely knew, appeared in less than 20 (?) chapters and ignored for most of the time) suggests otherwise.
 
- The reason why Naruto loves Sakura is stated in chapter 3. He might be phsically attracted to her, but that's not the reason he likes her.
- This makes no sense, since Sasuke never cared about Sakura in the first place. Not as a friend, nor a love interest.
 
3. The so called "Proud failure speech" tells us why Hinata likes and is inspired by Naruto. That she knows "the real Naruto" is an Interpretation of yours, wich can't be backed up wich factual evidence. Naruto being a failure and not a Genius (but dosen't let himself hold down by that) is prety common knowledge to ... everyone who knows him?

One of biggest mistake of kisimoto he made Hinata character disappear after the confession and bringing her back in the 600s who does that?

[lupina]

... wich could be seen as another indicator that changes were made around that time.

[Riverkid]

 

 

 

This has nothing to do with Kakashi's judgement of Sakura's feelings, and this is not an argument about Kakashi knowing everything, merely the Team 7 dynamic itself, which would make sense. The argument is that Sai's social ineptness allowed him to misunderstand Naruto. Naruto constantly gets underestimated and misunderstood. Kakashi doesn't have that. I would argue he actually does have decent perception. Him being a bad mentor is a separate argument, one I won't get into here. 

You replied with "Kakashi as their mentor", meaning you are adding his status as an mentor for your own argumentation. Kakashi underestimated his own team all the time since part-1, and even major situations/conflicts. The dynamic of Team-7 was his responsibitly, and he failed. Sasuke was his responsibility, and he failed. Naruto was his responsibility, and Jiraiya took 80% of his job because Kakashi couldn't bring Naruto further with his focus on Sasuke. Sakura was his responsibility and he couldn't find a solution for her so Tsunade took 80% of the job. 

Kakashi is terrible as an Sensei, and why? Because he is socially repellent since his childhood because of major experiences happened in his past. He would still be in the ANBU-Squad if the 3rd-Hokage didn't commanded him to be a sensei for genins because  even the 3rd-Hokage knew that Kakashi lacks social relations. 

So putting Kakashi as an analysis standpoint is as much questionable like the case with Sai.

 

 

Same thing, really, the war arc has instances that suggest Sasuke cares, though yes, the SS relationship is not possible until Sasuke changes. Sasuke changes in 698. This allowed him to no longer cut off bonds, and accept Sakura's love. 

Doesn't provide anything to my statement that a growing feeling (such as love) over negative-interactions is just weird and un-logical in many ways. 

 

 

 

The Genjutsu -isn't- needed. It was the device chosen for the movie to progress it forward. They could have had Hinata just explain it out and offer the scarf. If you cannot understand love why would you put more thought into it? Obliviousness realizing love is not a new thing or theme. The plot is also driving Naruto, noticeably for both Sasuke and Naruto they are focused on their goals. Only after their goals are complete does love enter. 

Naruto does understand love, he is 16.. not 7. And please don't make a case where Naruto doesn't know anything about love. Its simple, he just didn't notice Hinatas feelings, thats it. If you don't notice something, then it doesn't excist in your view.. which means that he couldn't grow "love" over something that never existed for him. And putting him in a genjutsu, to highlight the unnoticed things from Hinata doesn't re-work his whole feelings to feel "love" at the end. You view of "love" is pretty weird in my opinion with the way how you try to argue about that
 

 

 

I'm not refusing alternatives.I'm explaining why they would be bittersweet. The fact is that Hinata's feelings became more than just feelings pushing her forward to being a strong Shinobi. This is stressed in the manga, where she declares what she wants in the future, a huge foreshadow for 700 itself. You could do an ending that does not resolve pairings and have it be bittersweet, but that wasn't what Kishimoto wanted.

Your explanation to why it would be bittersweet is solely of your tunnelvisioned view towards hinata. Thats why you are refusing anything that would put Hinata not in her preferred Situation. I think you are hinata-obsessed or something.

 

 

 

Easy: Naruto did not mention Sakura's name as a possible girl to Minato when he was leaving. He had no one in mind at the time. This reflects to his first conversation that he frankly had no girlfriend. it was not a serious statement. It -was- a joke, and only that. 

I never debated about that scene with Minato, so i don't know why you are bringing this up. There are no clear signs of Naruto that he is only teasing Sakura in such ways, which puts your argumentation to the ground. 

 

 

No argument here, they did have a good friendship. The issue with it being any more then this is that they have no romantic interest in eahcother, Naruto's crush isn't really brought up anymore, and Sakura is shown to consistently love Sasuke. Then you have to question what was the point of all of that side-character focus and building up? This isn't tunnel vision. I am stating the issues with this: Explicitly platonic, one clearly loving another person, the second's crush fading, a love interest for Naruto being built up on the side in a side-character practically being built up to be more then that in the war-arc. 

Again, you can't build up love if Naruto doesn't notice her feelings, and even when her feelings are revealed not even putting more thought to that matter. Thats Kishimotos mistake, however also a mistake of yours trying to make a point with that argumentation.

 

 

Same as above, in that not every platonic relationship means that the relationship can go romantic just like that. Two people constantly standing next eachother should not be canon just because of a strong friendship alone. You need romantic implications that aren't thrown away by humor or red herrings. 

You are just making cases which relationships are platonic or not. 

 

Except that cannot be proven. We can make the opposite remark, that he allowed change but stuck to his original plan, and that fan-service was not part of it. Honestly, there's almost no fan-service in the manga, if any. That's the anime. That said, a story cannot be unhealthy even if fans do influence it, it doesn't really make sense. Bad writing, possibly, depending on how that fan-service is executed. Regardless, and moving away from that aside, the manga does not fan-serve. 

 

Do you even know what Fan-service is ? Its making exaggerated acts and character with the goal to entertain the fans. like giving Kakashi his own susanoo, giving Sasuke a parallel team to team-7, letting Sasuke also attend for the Hokage-title, Sakura suddenly gaining Tsunades power at the war-arc, giving Naruto jesus-power to  repair an eye for Kakashi. + Many decisions from characters to serve the plot (mostly done with Sasuke).

You think things like that needs to be proved? How do you want to prove a tree in a forest? Its just here, open your eyes.. lmao.

 

 

You are making way to many cases to support your argumentations, and on top of that you still tunnelvision too much towards Hinata. If you can't bring sources or facts, without influencing them with your tunnelvisioned analysis, then please stop replying.

[Gurmeet]

This is a rather silly dismissal. You can see in my post I am referencing the source in the cases I make when necessary. We all have the same source, and I very much remark with facts.
 
Let me summarize simply then, if need be: It -is- established that Naruto and Sakura relationship do not feel genuine romantic feelings for each other beyond a crush on Naruto's side. Chapter 3 and the Last when Naruto and Sakura talk about his feelings shows that this is primarily because of the rivalry with Sasuke (Chapter 3/The Last). We infer it is specifically Sakura chosen because Naruto says she is pretty (Chapter 3). Kishimoto wrote, on purpose, asked to be included, to help bring closure to those who didn't get it. (Interviews)
 
I sourced all of this by the way, in both the materials, and the interviews. This isn't really arguable, without people claiming conspiracy, which is silly. It is fact. And there's nothing wrong with that. 
 
You can argue this was done -badly-, or that it's poorly executed. But the intention is decisively as I am stating it is, in that the fact of the world is that there is no romantic NS, and that it was never intended by the author. Thought about, but ultimately he stuck with the plan. (Source: Interviews). 
 
I believe this little snippet should be enough of a retort to your demand of source: I do source, I do use facts. That is not an issue, never was. If you need it, happy to enclose the source between parenthesis.

Not facts assumption.Manga which are targeting the pre teens are not intended to read between the lines.

[Riverkid]

 

This is a rather silly dismissal. You can see in my post I am referencing the source in the cases I make when necessary. We all have the same source, and I very much remark with facts.

 

Let me summarize simply then, if need be: It -is- established that Naruto and Sakura relationship do not feel genuine romantic feelings for each other beyond a crush on Naruto's side. Chapter 3 and the Last when Naruto and Sakura talk about his feelings shows that this is primarily because of the rivalry with Sasuke (Chapter 3/The Last). We infer it is specifically Sakura chosen because Naruto says she is pretty (Chapter 3). Kishimoto wrote, on purpose, asked to be included, to help bring closure to those who didn't get it. (Interviews)

 

I sourced all of this by the way, in both the materials, and the interviews. This isn't really arguable, without people claiming conspiracy, which is silly. It is fact. And there's nothing wrong with that. 

 

You can argue this was done -badly-, or that it's poorly executed. But the intention is decisively as I am stating it is, in that the fact of the world is that there is no romantic NS, and that it was never intended by the author. Thought about, but ultimately he stuck with the plan. (Source: Interviews). 

 

I believe this little snippet should be enough of a retort to your demand of source: I do source, I do use facts. That is not an issue, never was. If you need it, happy to enclose the source between parenthesis. 

"when Naruto and Sakura talk about his feelings shows that this is primarily because of the rivalry with Sasuke"

Can you explain me to why Naruto choosed Sakura? Because Naruto had a crush on her before they were assigned to a team toghether alongside Sasuke. Sakura wasn't the only one having a crush on Sasuke, so why did Naruto choose Sakura from all the girls, and not someone else like "Ino" ?

The next thing you can try to explain me is why was it necessary "just" to get Sakura to beat Sasuke in rivalry-terms ? If Naruto wanted to be ahead of Sasuke, then only by getting "more" attention than him. How does Naruto get more attention just by having a crush on Sakura? When there are still plenty people around praising sasuke and putting their attention towards him.


As you can see, many things doesn't add up. The difference between me and you is that i question everything that doesnt sound right from the top to the bottom, and you are making a case with everything without even thinking about the whole topic.. straight going ahead in your tunnelvision and making random pointless argumentations for your preferred point of view to the debated topic.

--------------------------------------

How could Kishimoto write it better? Well, by letting Naruto be a wannabe-womanizer, trying to hit on every girl to get more attention than every male in the class. And after being assigned to a team, where the amount of people is restricted to only 3 people he could only put his focus on Sakura because then he would already get more attention than Sasuke "WITHIN" the team. 

MAYBE THEN you could argue about his crush just being a product of getting more attention than Sasuke, but that wasn't the case and that wouldn't fit Naruto as an Character trying to hit on every girl. 

As you can see, not only you are making random cases but also Kishimoto who wrote his own Story. He is the main-guy of the story and can't even add 1+1=2. Its more like 0+1=3.


 

[Gurmeet]

Gurmeet... sourcing statements that say the same thing I am saying cannot be an assumption, by definition.

you are assuming the fact the Sakura feelings never changed. I can also source the statement which are very contradictory to each other. It's good you like the manga but don't cheer pick things.All its looks like a biased review.

Edited by Gurmeet, 21 September 2017 - 03:55 PM.

[Gurmeet]

I actually have said that Sakura's feelings -did- change from disliking Naruto to seeing him as a close friend. This is the change.
 
Anyone saying this grew to romantic love is objectively wrong, by source-able information.

Where is this source-able information you are assuming that she started seeing him as a friend when she was already seeing him as a friend and her feeling never changed into love whereas kisimoto himself defended the fake confession he said it was more or less real

[Riverkid]

 

1: I already answered one: She's pretty. That's all there is to it, really. Sure, it could be explained and told in your face more, but...you don't need that. 

 

2: Because Naruto is twelve and believes if he beats Sasuke in this he is better. It also ties into acknowledgement, in that Naruto wants to be acknowledged.

 

3: Things do add up though? Even if it -didn't- add up, the error would be execution. The intent is still the same. My point of view is merely stating that the intent is there, and so is the dev. I find it silly when presenting a counter of X Y and B, it's dismissed as "tunnel-vision, opinion, whatever," when it's sourced, and the descriptor applies less to me and more to the user, perhaps, determined to find a hole in things when...there isn't one. 

 

As I said earlier, it's not a "case" to state narrative intent, sourcing that intent. That you have to stretch it to Kishimoto making a case makes it silly. I respect the guy's work and word. I don't think he is a big liar, or there is a conspiracy in the works and that NS was supposed to happen. I don't. There's no evidence to it, -that- would be making a case to prove it, and tunnel visioning. Critical thinking of the story is good, like, paralleling world wars with the fourth ninja war, or the use of a specific character, but questioning it in a sort of conspiracy manner is non-productive. 

1. Ino isn't pretty too? Sorry but you are making a weak point

2. Why would he think that? and why is it only focused on Sakura? Sakura was never a special case for Sasuke during school.. so how does Naruto leads to that conclusion?

3. Thats you nonsense talking again. "The intent is there, so its good" ye, lets just throw quality and logic out of the window. Pain for everyone to see a writer thinking like that

Lets praise kishimoto another time for you because he got the writing-intention for his story.. which is.. wow... 100% the case all the time a writer is writing on his own story.

You can't answer these holes because Kishimoto didn't provide anything logical. You can't debate about something like that when Kishimoto made huge errors. Yet you are praising his writing, and worshipping his intentions made in the story... lame