54175 replies to this topic

[Gurmeet]

 
I think the error separating our two conclusions is seeing the Promise of a Lifetime as romantic, when it isn't, and understanding that Naruto cannot turn the metaphorical mirror so easily to read himself and understand his emotions towards another as love, despite clearly understanding things outside of himself, such as Sakura loving Sasuke, or Pain's meaning of vengeance, particularly after clashing with him and others, such as Sasuke. This is why it is not OOC between the manga and the movie, Naruto is not able to so easily discern things toward himself (Stated as much by the Sage) and thus this actually fits with his character. 
 
But this was much more kindly stated, we can agree to disagree. 
 
Well, no. I've said this so many times that is not the case. We are all NS shippers, so why would I want you to change ships? I've also said so many times why I am here. 
 
The mere difference is I do enjoy the end and Naruto in general, and feel no need to complain about the other ships, I respect them, the author and the author's work. I post in defiance of some false statements that get thrown around (a lot), but I don't make posts on why you should ship X or another X pairing, and I never have. 

it's your interpretation not the author's we will never know what he meant by that scene as we interpert different meaning to many scenes.I love Hinata character but I don't like naruhina and to why I don't like it you should read heronite live journal he had written quite an essay. It also tell us what kisimoto wanted to convey when he introduced Hinata character.Even if we agree that a promise of a lifetime isn't romantic but that doesn't change the fact he really loved her. Naruto is a character which is like a open book and if you say that he confused his love then that is not his character.By the way why you enjoyed the end when he reverted all the character back to as it was in the beginning and finally why you love narusaku.

Edited by Gurmeet, 19 September 2017 - 10:29 AM.

[The Doctor forever]

On Pokemon: Don't expect that to change unless Nintendo decides to fire the current producer. The producer has said that he will never allow Ash to grow old, maintain a love interest or become a Pokemon Master until the series actually ends.  And he's been saying that for the last couple of decades.  He even fired the original team of writers from the first three seasons (Indigo up to Johto) because they wanted to write arcs that would have Ash actually mature, become a Pokemon Master and settle back into Pallet Town.

 

As for Naruto...yeah, he was pretty pathetic.   I understand  him feeling distressed over the issue, but hyperventilating and begging?  No, even huge advocators of friendship like Sora, Natsu and Luffy wouldn't react like that over a friend if said-friend committed heinous crimes and was trying to start a war that would lead to the demise of innocent people.

If I remember its also the same guy that says that the reason the have new females show up is for fanservice as well which is kinda sick as they are all 10 year olds, and said Misty would never have come back lol well 42 of Sun and Moon lol and we have her for two episodes with another one this week as well, but I do wish he would grow and Marry Misty as well as there is that old clip way way back in the first season that shows Misty with her daughter. As there was a very old clip for the first pokemon film that was never used at all as back then Pokemon was not as well known and was just going to run for 1 season.

 

 

This was the best one that I could find but I did find another. http://www.dailymoti...m/video/x4pmwla

 

I agree as Frieza would say to Naruto.

 

 

I mean to me looking back at Naruto crying cause everyone and everyone knows that Sasuke needs to die and Naruto crying like this, makes me wonder why anyone would want him to be Hokage, I mean I know I wouldn't want him to lead, as lookmat what he has done let known criminals go free. Yeah this is a great leader remember what Orochimaru did to the 3rd someone that Naruto saw as a grandfather.

 

I mean what I think would be good and I was talking to my friend Evil100 says that Orochimaru still kindnaps children as we know he is still up to no good, so he went onto saying that he kindnaps many children one being a daughter of this new Villian that has his own unit think of them like FOXHOUND from MGS 1 all very highly skilled and all work as a team, anyway his daughter is used as a new body for Orochimaru which means her death, hence this leads into a new war.

 

From what he said many and many people in Naruto are all killed, he has said while Akira is a bad guy he is also a father that lost his daughter to a monster like Orochimaru, and that hurt him as it did his wife the latter of which is later killed by Sasuke in a kitten move.

[Gurmeet]

If I remember its also the same guy that says that the reason the have new females show up is for fanservice as well which is kinda sick as they are all 10 year olds, and said Misty would never have come back lol well 42 of Sun and Moon lol and we have her for two episodes with another one this week as well, but I do wish he would grow and Marry Misty as well as there is that old clip way way back in the first season that shows Misty with her daughter. As there was a very old clip for the first pokemon film that was never used at all as back then Pokemon was not as well known and was just going to run for 1 season.
 

 
This was the best one that I could find but I did find another. http://www.dailymoti...m/video/x4pmwla
 
I agree as Frieza would say to Naruto.
 

 
I mean to me looking back at Naruto crying cause everyone and everyone knows that Sasuke needs to die and Naruto crying like this, makes me wonder why anyone would want him to be Hokage, I mean I know I wouldn't want him to lead, as lookmat what he has done let known criminals go free. Yeah this is a great leader remember what Orochimaru did to the 3rd someone that Naruto saw as a grandfather.
 
I mean what I think would be good and I was talking to my friend Evil100 says that Orochimaru still kindnaps children as we know he is still up to no good, so he went onto saying that he kindnaps many children one being a daughter of this new Villian that has his own unit think of them like FOXHOUND from MGS 1 all very highly skilled and all work as a team, anyway his daughter is used as a new body for Orochimaru which means her death, hence this leads into a new war.
 
From what he said many and many people in Naruto are all killed, he has said while Akira is a bad guy he is also a father that lost his daughter to a monster like Orochimaru, and that hurt him as it did his wife the latter of which is later killed by Sasuke in a kitten move.

where it is shown? But yeah agree to the fact orochimaru and sasuke both should have been killed.

Edited by Gurmeet, 19 September 2017 - 01:13 PM.

[Gurmeet]

 
See, using the interviews and later canon material as supplement, particular the NS scene in the last Kishimoto insisted on we -do- know these things. Later information helps us confirm prior things when we go back to analyze them.
 
I did read the Heronite journal's relevant articles, and I thank you for sharing. I think it suffers from being out-dated (There's an amusing piece about Hinata saving Naruto the author noted fans predicted but they were doubtful of, which this was written pre-437), and some key understanding and misrepresentation of things that I could discuss very lengthily with them, particularly now that it is not speculation anymore as it was treated in the essay. But the essay is nicely structured. 
 
The thing is it is not a fact Naruto really loved Sakura anymore than a crush that faded. I would say this is a common misconception, aggravated by the anime. Naruto was a kinisthetic genius, he did not understand things always right away despite yelling what he was feeling, and in the case of romantic love did not grasp it towards himself. He did see it outside others, he could not turn the mirror on himself. 
 
The thing about the end is there is no character reversion. No one loses growth. I enjoyed it because it was a nice wrap on things, and more or less was a happy ending for all, and particularly enjoyed Sasuke's monologue. 
 
I enjoy the warm relationship dynamic from NS. Even as friend's you have to admit that it is one of Naruto's most important relationships. I think if he had chosen NS, it would have culminated into a beautiful relationship, but I respect Kishimoto either way, and appreciate him spending countless hours making memorable Naruto for us. 

I do respect kisimoto for making Naruto which was to give hope and message to young readers but let's agree on that the quality and message dropped after pain arc. At this point it looked like he never cared for the characters and if it ended at NS he would have never have to make filler movie to justify NH and SS.Sakura character went from I beg u to I will stand side by side as we fight it shows that she was emotionally strong and if she get over saskue then it's bad writing.Sakura's love was also a crush.

Edited by Gurmeet, 19 September 2017 - 02:31 PM.

[The Doctor forever]

where it is shown? But yeah agree to the fact orochimaru and sasuke both should have been killed.

Where was what shown the Misty and Ash daughter clip if so this was only shown in Japan way back in the past.

 

Yeah not just them but Kabuto as well, I mean if Sasuke had a Darth Vader death then it would have been better but as we know Kishi loved the Uchiha a lot hence why he kept trying to make us feel sorry for them.

 

I mean its like if George RR Martin tried to make us all feel sorry for Joffrey, I mean Sasuke was nothing but a kitten all through out the manga just caring for himself, any other writer would have killed him off a long time ago or at thevery least killed him when the time was just right.

 

I mean look at Sansa she grew up.

[sushi.]

grrm did try to make us feel sorry for Joffrey, in a way at least. Despite his ~personality, he was a 13 year old child. You can feel empathy for a person and not excuse their actions. At the same time.

[Gurmeet]

 
I don't think the quaity "spirraled" down, per say, more that the war arc is a large chunk of the end, and that arc is for many, is not as good as the Pain Arc. Seperating the Finale from it, and you'd honestly have a growth, as Sasuke vs. Naruto was pretty well done, you could -tell- he thought about this for a long time. 
 
I don't believe at all Kishimoto stopped caring for the characters, particularly in that he didn't stop working on Naruto after the manga, he wrote another film. 
 
No filler movie existed to justify SS, and Gaiden does not do this either. Nor does the Last justify NH, it is merely a showing of the culmination of the romance for NH. 

Last shows that Naruto loves Hinata not Sakura. You are saying its cultimation of romance which is not it is beginning and culmination of romance. The thing u are saying is contradictory to each other and let's agree to disagree on Naruto's character.

Edited by Gurmeet, 19 September 2017 - 04:02 PM.

[Gurmeet]

Culmination is the highest point, and the Last is the highest point of the romantic aspect of NH. That's all it does, and is not a contradiction, if that is what you mean, you'll have to elaborate if it is not what you mean. The "Justification" of NH and SS is the entire manga, really. 
 
We can agree to disagree on Naruto's character, though he wasn't much of the topic.

The relationship between NH and SS started to develop late and its rushed. Reread the post I have edited it. Sakura's love is not a love its obsession.By the way kisimoto doesn't know to write romance u can't just disappear a character after a confession without giving proper end to it. It is never shown in manga saskae loved Sakura before the ending which brings in the fact its rushed.

Edited by Gurmeet, 19 September 2017 - 04:15 PM.

[Gravenimage]

The relationship between NH and SS started to develop late and its rushed. Reread the post I have edited it. Sakura's love is not a love its obsession.By the way kisimoto doesn't know to write romance u can't just disappear a character after a confession without giving proper end to it. It is never shown in manga saskae loved Sakura before the ending which brings in the fact its rushed.

 

In other words it was forced and it was just another of Kishimoto's asspulls.

[FutureHalfofFamer]

If we wanted to make NS the canon pairing? We would have to make her love of Sasuke shallow, so it would fade, and make Naruto's crush of Sakura become more then that. You could keep the teasing in, but some scenes given to SS and NH you would give ot NS instead, such as Sasuke slipping to his curse mark (HAve Naruto slip into his Jinchuuriki form instead). I'd take the time here to fix Team 7 execution issues here too and add an arc before the Chuunin Exams if I could too. 

 

The False Confession would then probably be an actual Confession, ad everything at that point attributed to be true and not false. You'd also not have Sakura confess to Sasuke before he leaves, we need part one to definitely clue in. I don't think you need to touch the Pain arc much, (Though having Hinata die would aid things), and I would go ahead and fix the issue of death being trivialized here as an aside.

 

This does change a lot of things in retrospect though looking at these edits, there would be no need for a promise to be made if Sakura didn't yean for his return, so the manga would definitely be different with my sort of changes. 

 

I'll be nice like the other members requested of me and NOT pick this whole thing apart. I'll respond to the bolded. You have it twisted around lol, just like your other posts on here, for a second I thought a NH/SS fan created an account and... ohhh, riiiiggghhttt. Anyways,  Naruto's love for Sakura was and is real and that was proven plenty of times in the Manga, while Sakura's "love" for Sasuke was shallow and even selfish as stated by Kishimoto. He doesn't love Hinata and he never will, Sasuke doesn't love Sakura and that has been shown numerous times in the Manga as well. There was no, "denied" feelings. But I do remember Sakura not denying being Naruto's girlfriend in front of his father, I also remember her getting genuinely upset when Naruto called her a liar about loving him. I also remember a special little scene where she flirting with Naruto, blushing around him, and admiring him. I also remember a scene way back in the Land of Waves Arc where she herself even stated that she was feeling something for Naruto. I also remember a certain scene where Naruto realized why he loved Sakura so much, I also remember a scene way back that linked to the "you will gain strength when protecting a special person." And that was linked to his fight with Gaara to protect Sakura.

Edited by FutureHalfofFamer, 19 September 2017 - 06:54 PM.

[The Doctor forever]

 

In other words it was forced and it was just another of Kishimoto's asspulls.

Plus if they were meant to be together then it would have been shown very well in the manga and no film would have been needed to show how they got together at all I mean think about it if NaruSaku became canon would they have done a whole Film on how they got together no.

 

I mean I am a big Tolkin fan and it took him a whole year to just get the ending to Return of the King just the way that he wanted it to be.

[Dalton.T.R]

Anything with Sasuke was one of Kishimoto's asspulls. His Sharringan always advanced to the next stage or became more powerful at extremely convenient times. 

Edited by Dalton.T.R, 19 September 2017 - 07:15 PM.

[Kagomaru]

Anything with Sasuke was one of Kishimoto's asspulls. His Sharringan always advanced to the next stage or became more powerful at extremely convenient times. 

The Sharingan itself has always been an asspull as the manga progressed.  How do you go from precognition and mimicry via reading of muscle movement to the God-breaking crap that you get by the time of the War arc?

[Dalton.T.R]

The Sharingan itself has always been an asspull as the manga progressed.  How do you go from precognition and mimicry via reading of muscle movement to the God-breaking crap that you get by the time of the War arc?

I mean, in the beginning it wasn't that bad. But the first total asspull for me would probably be the first fight between Naruto and Sasuke. Sasuke was getting his butt handed to him five times over, then it just advances to the next level out of nowhere? LAAAAAAAAAAME!

[sushi.]

It may have been discussed already, but just for topic: What elements would you change throughout the course of the manga to make NS the canon pairing?

Sakura's love for Sasuke would not need to be shallow. In fact it can't be. Not if it's gonna be a be a big plotpoint, which I initially didn't dislike. If it's just a crush it wouldn't be difficult for Naruto to win her love and it wouldn't be difficult for Sakura to realize who her soulmate is.

 

We can debate day in and out why Sakura loved Sasuke because we were never told why or even given any hints. I can't fathom it tbh. My best guess is; Sakura is a hopeless romantic, and she wants to find her dream prince. "Sasuke" complimented her forehead, evolving her feelings from a crush to a dream(about who Sasuke is and can be to her). She starts thinking she knows a person but she doesn't. The reality is that what she fantasized about Sasuke, Naruto had. It was quite literal. He knew what she wanted to hear in that scene and people debate the importance of it but 1. Sakura brought it up again when Sasuke left, and 2 it was paralleled with Kushina, who said she found her soulmate Minato that way. I don't believe this is why she loved Sasuke, but that it opened up a doorway and she was stubborn never to think twice about it, the only one who made her stop and confuse her heart was Naruto. This is canon, subtly in the manga and literally in the databook.

 

It's kinda like Sansa>Joffrey I think? Sansa's bubble though was quickly popped and she grew a backbone. Sakura kept wavering, going back and forth and essentially I think that was Kishi's mistake. He teased saku>sasu for so long people lost faith and grew tired of it.

 

FYI Analyzer please don't reply. This is a sincere request, not an attempt to be rude. You've made no effort becoming a person people want to converse with. Don't waste your energy and especially don't waste mine.

[The Doctor forever]

 

Thank you for being respectful. You can pick apart my argument, I have no issues defending what I publicly post, I tend to pick apart arguments myself. 

 

Firstly Kishimoto does not state Sakura's love for Sasuke is selfish. 

 

If love equals crush, then you are right on the Naruto part, and I agree with you. Otherwise, I strongly disagree.

 

The "doesn't love Hinata" and never will is objectively false.

 

The Sasuke bits I would counter in that it is the employed language that suggests otherwise, but this can be a matter of interpretation we disagree on. I'm happy to concede that SS needed a little bit more, more so in its roots than the end.

 

Sakura hitting Naruto for doing his thing is probably not a sign of agreeing. Naruto also later says he needs to stop teasing Sakura after seeing his strength. We can tell he wasn't being serious. Possible development pulled back down.

 

Sakura was upset, because Naruto saw through her and called her out. Her plan was not working. We -know- Sakura is lying here, and she still loves Sasuke, and this is pressed over and over again at us. 

 

The admiring/blushing scene quickly gets played up into humor. 

 

The Wave Arc is the beginning of Sakura's growing friendship in Naruto, her beginning of her acknowledgement of him.

 

For the last bit, considering the platonic-ness, Naruto is protecting a dear friend. 

 

This is why I would boldly counter-argue there is little to no NS romantic progression, while there is plenty of NS platonic progression. All development that would be more is quickly taken away, humorized, or shot down. 

 

 

To be honest? Yes. If the end game pairing was NS the Last would have been about them instead, framed extensively differently of course. The film is -not- needed to justify NS any more than it is to justify NH, the manga would work. 

alright then how come no other manga need a film to show how a couple got together.

 

Rave Master didn't do it

 

Bleach didn't do it

 

Sailor Moon didn't need one

 

Love Hina didn't need one

 

Dragon ball didn't need one

 

my bride is a mermaid didn't need one

 

Ranma 1/2 didn't need one

 

full metal jacket didn't need one

 

Fairy Tail does not need one

 

hell lets go into kids shows

 

Avatar the last airbender didn't need one

 

So no the last would not have been made as NS was a big thing in the manga where Hinat hardly showed up there for they had to do a BS film to show fans why, if NH was shown more in the manga then the Last would never have been needed at all cause it would have happened in the Manga and there would have been proof that NH was then end game which it is not.

 

As many have said both here and on Youtube Kishi never planned this out as he is not Tolkin or George RR Martin who did plan out their stories.

 

the only reason it took Tolkin a year to get the Retrun of the King done was cause he wanted it to be good, now you can keep trying and trying to say this was all planned out but it was not planned out.

[Dalton.T.R]

Question for anyone interested in helping me out a little.

 

I'm about to start my brand new book series "Mages of the North" and I want my main couple to resemble NaruSaku as closely as possible. How would any of you go about this? 

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

Anything with Sasuke was one of Kishimoto's asspulls. His Sharringan always advanced to the next stage or became more powerful at extremely convenient times. 

I didn't mind it TOO much up through the Mangekyo Sharingan since even though the Mangekyo Sharingan was definitely very powerful, it had costs and downsides to balance it (eventual blindness after unlocking it - using it and its abilities merely sped up the process - and enormous chakra usage). When someone like Itachi used it, it came off as very epic because he RARELY (needed to) used it, which allowed build-up and anticipation to when he would use it again after that brief peek of it we got when he first used Tsukuyomi on Kakashi way back when in part one, as well as Sasuke, and seeing the after-effect of Amaterasu to escape the toad belly, The only reason he used it so much against Sasuke was only to push Sasuke to his limits in order to draw out Orochimaru from the Curse Seal so he could seal him with the Totsuka no Tsurugi and rid Sasuke of the Curse Seal, and even "Tobi" / "Madara" said himself that if Itachi had been seriously trying to kill Sasuke, then he could have done so instantly whenever he wanted (and this was when Itachi was like..90% blind).

Heck, I didn't even mind Izanagi too much because it had the cost of the permanent loss of the Sharingan eye that casts it (with the eye literally closing rather than just "going dark"), hence why Danzo had multiple Sharingan grafted into his arm and Obito had the supply of eyes to replace the one he used to cast Izanagi against Konan.

However, after Sasuke got the Mangekyo Sharingan, it quickly loses its epicness since not only is it just the same moves as Itachi (due to Itachi somehow implanting his own Mangekyo abilities into Sasuke), but Sasuke just keeps spamming and maintaining it the first chances he got (which leads to him almost going completely blind within, at best, a couple weeks). It also doesn't help that, even though Sasuke no longer had the Curse Seal to forcibly draw out more chakra (which he had to do JUST to barely keep up a step behind Itachi), he was somehow able to spam and maintain the Mangekyo during the Kage Summit and against Danzo despite the Mangekyo using more chakra than any of his previous techniques, but he conveniently doesn't feel any chakra exhaustion until the very end of the battle..

But then you get the "Eternal" Mangekyo Sharingan, which erases the downside of eventual blindness (and the virtual erasure of chakra exhaustion from both Naruto and Sasuke, yet Kaguya seemed to be affected conveniently), Izanami (the move itself isn't the problem so much as it just feels completely tacked on, like a checklist of Shinto gods and goddesses to name a Sharingan move after), and even allowing it to become the Rinnegan itself rather than the Rinnegan being its own separate thing.

You also have the Sharingan's connection to Kurama that was brought up between Sasuke and Itachi completely dropped. (IIRC, Sasuke mentioning the blindness of the Mangekyo being "the price of using the Kyubi's chakra" or something)

Edited by HalfDemonInuyasha, 19 September 2017 - 08:03 PM.

[TheFirstEvil100]

Sakura's love for Sasuke would not need to be shallow. In fact it can't be. Not if it's gonna be a be a big plotpoint, which I initially didn't dislike. If it's just a crush it wouldn't be difficult for Naruto to win her love and it wouldn't be difficult for Sakura to realize who her soulmate is.

 

We can debate day in and out why Sakura loved Sasuke because we were never told why or even given any hints. I can't fathom it tbh. My best guess is; Sakura is a hopeless romantic, and she wants to find her dream prince. "Sasuke" complimented her forehead, evolving her feelings from a crush to a dream(about who Sasuke is and can be to her). She starts thinking she knows a person but she doesn't. The reality is that what she fantasized about Sasuke, Naruto had. It was quite literal. He knew what she wanted to hear in that scene and people debate the importance of it but 1. Sakura brought it up again when Sasuke left, and 2 it was paralleled with Kushina, who said she found her soulmate Minato that way. I don't believe this is why she loved Sasuke, but that it opened up a doorway and she was stubborn never to think twice about it, the only one who made her stop and confuse her heart was Naruto. This is canon, subtly in the manga and literally in the databook.

 

It's kinda like Sansa>Joffrey I think? Sansa's bubble though was quickly popped and she grew a backbone. Sakura kept wavering, going back and forth and essentially I think that was Kishi's mistake. He teased saku>sasu for so long people lost faith and grew tired of it.

 

FYI Analyzer please don't reply. This is a sincere request, not an attempt to be rude. You've made no effort becoming a person people want to converse with. Don't waste your energy and especially don't waste mine.

Marked what I want to say in bold since I have been watching this a lot.

 

And yes I am back, but anyway the thing is Sansa saw what a kitten Joffrey was and knew better than to be with him and has grown to be a strong woman unlike Sakura who kept holding out for Sasuke to love her, and lets be really Sasuke loves just himself and his own brother.

 

I mean why would Sasuke want Sakura from what we have seen Sasuke wanted power so why would he want to be with someone that to him would not beable to give him powerful kids as Sasuke would want someone with a kekkei genkai that would be able to have powerful kids, that is who he would want powerful kids.

 

This was the guy even before he left hated Sakura and did nothing but call her names after all,

[sushi.]

Marked what I want to say in bold since I have been watching this a lot.

 

And yes I am back, but anyway the thing is Sansa saw what a kitten Joffrey was and knew better than to be with him and has grown to be a strong woman unlike Sakura who kept holding out for Sasuke to love her, and lets be really Sasuke loves just himself and his own brother.

 

I mean why would Sasuke want Sakura from what we have seen Sasuke wanted power so why would he want to be with someone that to him would not beable to give him powerful kids as Sasuke would want someone with a kekkei genkai that would be able to have powerful kids, that is who he would want powerful kids.

 

This was the guy even before he left hated Sakura and did nothing but call her names after all,

Welcome back.

 

In addition even sasusaku fans can't write Sakura's love for Sasuke in detail. What does she like about him, a basic question they cannot answer that. Sakura's love for Sasuke is an absolute mystery so of course people call it shallow?? I mean what else can a person do honestly XD

Edited by sushi., 19 September 2017 - 08:19 PM.