54175 replies to this topic

[BlackShirtGuy]

Well, how are we defining romance? If you have a different meaning then what I am going by, then that could be the clash. 

 

My definition is plot-centered. 

Basically, "we will use wathever I mean how I want to say it and what I say it means, because I know better than you and all your arguments are nothing but fallacies, and I am the one with higher education and objectivness"

[Riverkid]

 

I corrected the second sentence: I.E., the death of a character does not necessarily make the story better. Or I can keep it as is, really, because deaths on their own don't make the story better, it's their set up and the elements around them that do. I.E., it's Jirayai's connection to Naruto that gives the death impact. If it was just a random guy, it would just serve to make Pein more powerful seeming, but, I could write that without him dying if needed. 

 

When you remove context, it's easy to do anything. 

 

There is no romance in Naruto. Naruto has growing affections for the character he ends up with. These don't contradict. They cannot contradict. They have to do with two different things. 

 "because deaths on their own don't make the story better, it's their set up and the elements around them that do." the purpose of a "death character" IS to set up a climax and providing the act with more and profound elements. Since when is  "death" on its own? 

i never said that death necessairly makes a story better. I explained why the death of Sasuke would have improved the story. Buts it you, coming around the corner.. saying "Death does not necessarily makes the story better" ye, we know ? thats why i have given EXPLANATION to why the death would be an improvement. 

"there is no romance in Naruto" There is. his crush towards Sakura is enough to prove that there is romance. Naruto might not be a romance-typed story, but elements of romance IS in there. 



 

[T XD]

Well, how are we defining romance? If you have a different meaning then than what I am going by, then that could be the clash. 

 

My definition is plot-centered. 

Your definition is of romance manga and of shoujo manga. Romance is not being focused to be called plot-centered. Naruto's one of its sub-genres is romance. It gets displayed by characters.

 

Affection isn't pure romance, but it's related to romance. It could be a romantic feeling, a spontaneity, a showing of emotion, attachment, creativity. Feelings and behaviors along these words and terms. In Naruto, there were many feelings and behaviors shown along these kinds of romance.

Edited by T XD, 05 September 2017 - 03:19 PM.

[T XD]

Romance is definitely not a "sub-genre" of Naruto. Action, Adventure, but never romance.

 

Characters can have romantic feelings, and desires to be with others, and we can say it is not a romance. See, we never explore the actual pursuit of it to any sort of culmination as a sub-plot, or as underlying chronic tension. This doesn't have to do anything with it's genre label either. 

 

I.E., I'm distinctly discussing the genre label romance and the application of any serious dealing with it, but yes, there are romantic feelings characters do feel for eachother. 

I understood you. I was discussing about labeling and its application.

 

Action is one of Naruto's two dominant main genres. There's more than one sub-genre for Naruto which two of them are Adventure and Romance which a Romance sub-genre is not the same as Romance genre, or else you'll get either a romance manga, a Shoujo manga or both.

 

A sub-genre doesn't have to get a sub-plot. If you watch anime or read other manga, you'll see sub-genres in most of them. It's what displayed. It's what get told and/or shown at least occasionally to be considered a sub-genre.

Romantic feelings and desires to be with others are related to romance. Not the definition of romance. They don't have to be plot-centered romance. If they're shown and/or told at least occasionally then they'll be a sub-genre.

[T XD]

 

Romance is still not a sub-genre of Naruto. A story that encompasses two people's journey from their initial state as strangers, acquaintances, friends, to a couple would fit this sub-genre. 

 

The Last for example, can be classified with the Romance Sub-Genre. That is an example of how prominent it needs to be to fit the definition, but the Last is still very much a Shonen. The Manga does not do this. Contrary to what you state, the plot does need to deal with this in some way, else we run into a case of stretching words to fit something, or things to fit a label. 

A story that encompasses two people's journey from their initial state as strangers, acquaintances, friends to a couple is not a sub-genre. It's a romance genre. That how some romance stories surround and hold with two strangers.

 

One of The Last's main genres is Romance. Romance in The Last is not at all a sub-genre. NH relationship is a primary focus. A shounen is a type and can have a romance genre. In most manga and anime, sub-genres don't need to be dealt with. It's what is shown and/or talked about. The plot can tackle it and can not, but what is shown and/or talked, at least occasionally and not barely, would be a sub-genre.

[T XD]

How are you defining Sub Genre? Sub Genre is a division of a Genre, I.E, Contemporary Romance is a Sub Genre of Romance. I think we are both (I also am misusing Sub Genre's denotation), are talking of Romance as a secondary Genre. or maybe fused genre I.E., in English Terms, you are saying Naruto is an Adventure Romance.
 
The thing is it doesn't fit.
 
Naruto isn't about romantic love triumphing. It isn't about lovers accomplishing goals together.
 
You can have love interests in Adventure. You can have crushes, you can have love triangles. It's how these relationships are utilized that makes it into a romance, or sub-romance, or secondary Romance, however we are meaning the word to be, though it really is about Genre.
 
The Last is easy to fit into it: You have Love sacrificed for the Higher Cause, you have the couple placed in an exotic locale with a world in crisis, they have two goals, both the higher cause and love, and both must be achieved at the end. I.E., Hinata sacrifices her love for Naruto to save Hanabi, we have the journey to the moon to save the world in crisis, we have Naruto wanting to save the world and later be with Hinata, and vice versa for Hinata, and you have the achievement of both of these things.
 
You can't do that with Naruto the manga. SS definitely doesn't fit the model, nor does ST or NH or SI or definitely not CK. And no, no non-canon ship fits it either. The achievement of love never enters focus, not as a subplot or ever serious, and that is what bars Naruto from being classified with the additional genre, sub-genre, sub-genre, whatever we want to call it, of Romance.

You're complicating the sub-genre thing way too much. I explained it as much as I can with simplicity. It's a simple term.
 
Sub-genre is, as you said, a division of a genre. A romance sub-genre is like a sub-romance as you mentioned in part of your post. It can not be a genre. It can be secondary genre that the plot focuses on or doesn't focuses on. It's what shown and said related to romance.
For example, from what is related to romance is shown sometimes in the story as a whole, then we will have a sub-genre of romance.

 

Edited by T XD, 05 September 2017 - 05:26 PM.

[T XD]

That's not what I was saying especially the first part.

 

I've lost my seriousness and was giving you a second chance by discussing with you regarding this topic.

 

Something similar to what I'm feeling right now :

 

" Can I help you ? "   " No. I just waited in line for 30 minutes to say Hi ".

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

That's not what I was saying especially the first part.

 

I've lost my seriousness and was giving you a second chance by discussing with you regarding this topic.

 

Something similar to what I'm feeling right now :

 

" Can I help you ? "   " No. I just waited in line for 30 minutes to say Hi ".

 

Yeah, T, I just gave up on trying to discuss things rationally with Analyzer, which is sad really.

[lupina]

... "House M. D. " also dosen't have "Romance" as a genere/sub genere. Still no one would come up with the idea that there is no romance in this series. 

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

Does Analyzer even know that she can't hide what she says and try to retcon her words because you can just go to a person's profile and click on "Posts" and you can read every post they made on the site?

[sushi.]

 
I'm right here, you know, you can just ask me.

They won't, and we know you're here. Many have expressed desires not to speak with youu, but still vent out frustrations over your posts.

[kirabook]

Pretty much. I've been lurking as I always do and I'm constantly asking why people are bothering with someone who has no true intention of actual debate, discussion, or analyzing much of anything. 

[BlueStarSaber]

I beg to differ. Right here, you know.

I'm sorry who are you again?

[BlueStarSaber]

A Naruto fan, like yourself.

You are mistaken, I am an ex naruto fan and I consider myself as such as long as anything currently past 698 is considered canon

[BlueStarSaber]

You aren't a fan anymore because you didn't get the ending you wanted?

I'm an ex fan because I do not agree with the direction they have gone and disgusted with what they did to the characters. Heck I consider the current canon ending and spin off series to be the one direction I would not accept.

Edited by BlueStarSaber, 07 September 2017 - 08:04 PM.

[BlackShirtGuy]

 

I can respect this stance. 

 

and disgusted with what they did to the characters

 

 

By what exactly? The characters are consistent if you mean portrayal. 

Analyzer, do you seriously have nothing better to do than starting "debates" on topics (you've already discussed, mind you) of characters of a series than it's merely on life support? Dude go find a flipping hobby! , no offense, but your way of life looks really sad to me :/

Edited by BlackShirtGuy, 07 September 2017 - 08:15 PM.

[sushi.]

Analyzer, do you seriously have nothing better to do than starting "debates" on topics (you've already discussed, mind you) of characters of a series than it's merely on life support? Dude go find a flipping hobby! , no offense, but your way of life looks really sad to me :/

Yea. Everytime she asks something she acts like this is her first day here. "How did the characters change?" Analyzer you've asked that, and more, since you joined and we've answered since you joined. You do nothing but drain the forum.

[Khaleesi]

Yeah, she has said what she had to say already, and everyone has seen it and listen to it. Even if at the end they did not agree, the discussion with anyone was already over, so why going back and around the same things already repeated. And this isnt only on the debate thread, it's on everything related to the series here.

[Riverkid]

 

Ending Naruto at 698 would make it a lot worse, if we removed them or made them non-canon. The complaints about things being unresolved would not only then be true, but be amped up to much higher of a case. 

 

Every idea, change or improvement would mak it a lot worse in your opinion. You highlight yourself more as an kishimoto fan, rather than a nauto fan.

Almost everything written down here is just being argued against by your standpoint, always trying to highlight how kishimoto made everything correct and right.

 

[Yyubie]

Pretty much. I've been lurking as I always do and I'm constantly asking why people are bothering with someone who has no true intention of actual debate, discussion, or analyzing much of anything. 

It's either they have no life (hikikomori or close to that) or they like flames. I'm so sorry if my word offended anyone , but why else would they talk with people like that ?

 

So umbdridge finally said it "You aren't a fan anymore because you didn't get the ending you wanted?"

Hahaha this .... this is the line that pro ending fans (nh/ss fan) usually said against the anti ending fans. Now i'm 100% sure umbridge definitely not an NS fan.