31587 replies to this topic

[VanitasDS76491]

@analyzer
I disagree, naruto may be an idiot but he's not an emotionally retard guy who can't differentiate between a romantic love and food. That just an excuse to make Hinata naruto first love which is idiotic on itself.
And then the fact that naruto capable to do kage bushin at academy days is butchering establish canon fact.
On top of that naruto love sakura because he want to one up sasuke when there's no evidence in the manga and even if that true then why don't he go to ino which more beautiful and has more than sakura who is just your ordinary fan girl?
That doesn't mention Hinata sudden amnesia to walk on wall, naruto perfect jinchuriki genjutsu immunity and how the kitten sakura capable to become immune to genjutsu that genjutsu a perfect jinchuriki.
This movie is canon and it take two years to make it as that's the best thing they can do?
Heck a rush naruto movie (road to ninja) do better than that.
The last has supreme animation quality though.

Ya Sakura had nothing to do with Naruto and sasuke's rivalry and Naruto even said to stay out of it after sasuke left the hospital fight. So that was a lie.

[LuckyChi7]

Been a while since I posted anything NS related, and man I got to say this is such a motivation a way for me to continue writing my story that I held off for the course of June due to finals.. but man this is so beautiful 

 

 

 

[VanitasDS76491]

Been a while since I posted anything NS related, and man I got to say this is such a motivation a way for me to continue writing my story that I held off for the course of June due to finals.. but man this is so beautiful 
 

 
 

So beautiful well done finding that.

[TouKen4Life3g]

The Last did the job but it's poor.

[Nate River]

@Rocci: I don't think Naruto is emotionally retarded. Being oblivious is actually not necessarily an abnormal trait. An American interpretation of this would make it more obvious, though I've even seen it then where a character just doesn't see it (Perhaps because they are not seeking that sort of self-worth).
 
Yeah, the first scene in the Last didn't make sense, but it's a forgettable mistake, as in, it's not one you chalk up points against in a movie.
 
I don't recall, but I think Naruto saw some admirable traits in Sakura initially? That and Sakura was on Team 7, not Ino. I imagine it would be the same situation if Ino/Sakura switched places. Another thing often forgotten is Sakura is telling us this information, not Naruto. So she has a different view of the relationship than Naruto would.

That it's Sakura saying doesn't save it. Does Naruto jump up and protest? Does the movie offer anything that was suggest that her statement was supposed to be viewed as erroneous by the audience? Does it do anything to suggest that it intends to limit that interpretation solely to her? If the sole point of this were to simply define Sakura's perspective then the fact that she is providing the information might mean something. None of that happens through. What is stated there is the series's effort to move past the fact that Naruto possessed romantic feelings for her the entire manga. In other words, the Last redefines Naruto's feelings for the purpose of moving past them. That Sakura says it does not change this. I think that line was meant to re-characterize them, generally, and not just tell us her POV.

 

And even if you are correct, it does not offer much solace. It's one thing for 12-year old, early series Sakura to think this. It's not to hard to see why she might think that at the very beginning, but the Sakura that's known him for 6 years at that point and has seen all the things that he has done for her. POAL in particular cuts against that. It's rather awful that she'd think that of him after all that, especially if her assessment is incorrect. Why on earth would she think that? Under your reading Sakura gets trashed instead Naruto (if Sakura's assesment is right then she's not awful for pointing it out, he is awful for doing it) And as I note above, the whole point is for the series to "deal" with Naruto's feelings. If the only reason for this seen is to tell us about Sakura, how does is that accomplished?

 

It's so bad. It had been two years why not just have him move on? She still likes Sasuke that won't change. Have him accept it and move on like a big boy. I guess to avoid making Hinata look like second place?  Not everyone gets together with their first love. Of course, this would have been so much easier if the manga had spent time developing a close on screen relationship between NH. Then you could shift without Hinata coming across as second place or picking him up on the rebound.

 

There is no good way to spin what they did. The only saving grace is that Naruto had already reached his nadir as a character. I mean he selfish kitten when it came to his romantic pursuit of Sakura, but that's still better than proclaiming a mass murderer a cool guy. While Boruto has found new and inventive ways to continue to crap on Naruto's character, it's really hard to top that cringe inducing line. 

 

This brings me to me other point of contention with one of your earlier posts. The problem with the Last in general is that it had to do what the manga should have been doing. With two-exceptions, their interactions were totally superficial and, in the case of romance, one-sided. Naruto never shows any interest and despite opportunities you don't get the development that NS or, hell, even SS got. Almost all of it is Hinata thinking alone or them making superficial observations. It's one thing if the Last were limited to showing us HOW. If the story had done for NH what it did for NS then you could skip to 700 where they are married with kids and use the last simply to tell the story of how they got officially got together or got married, but because they didn't lay the foundation for a deep, close relationship (be it friendship or romance), they had to use the movie to do that too and that's why you get the stupid ret-cons. 

[Aevrum]

The Last didn't destroy or ignore anything. The excuse wasn't the best maybe: Naruto was an idiot and didn't understand her feelings. But it works to explain the more actual answer: Kishimoto didn't want to address romance in the manga. Plus Naruto is an idiot quite often in the manga, even if his ideas are actually not as idiotic once he makes sense of the situation. (Once again, I'm going to put the blame on Kishi here, if he had address romanced in the manga, the Last would have been much stronger).
 
Ha. You want the War Arc to last longer? I can see where you are coming from, but in my opinion it was so long! I wish it was shorter, personally. But I get why it was long, war isn't done super fast anyway, so I guess Kishimoto has defense for its length.
 
I wish Kishimoto continued NS's path too. I expected a sort of Lés Miserables treatment with NH and NS in the manga, (The book, not the play/movie), where the girl with unrequited love sacrifices her life for the boy who lovers another. But since Hinata survived the pain Arc, and Naruto wasn't with anyone, there was always that other possibility, and then that other possibility happened.

I over dramatized quite a few things to make clear what I don't like about the movie. Sorry it appealed so extremely Anti^^
But I think that the movie did really really bad in terms of NH. Most importantly because for me personally it seemed extremely simplified, rushed and a little bit forced. I have a lot of possibilities in my head, with how they could have easily handled it better, also based on the Manga template.

Naruto is a little bit dense and has a tunnel vision - but he simply knew about Hinata's love. The fight with Pain, Neiji's speech, the hand-holding, the short farewell with his father talking about his mother's wish to marry a girl like her... He got told so many times about it, and we got told so many times that he did indeed understand, but was a bit overwhelmed.

Isn't it also a important motive of the whole story that he understands love pretty well? Heck, he even understood instantly what was going on between Shika and Temari.

But if you then start the movie like they did with The Last, it has only two implications: Either all points above were just kitten/luck and he was always an incredible idiot, what literally would destroy the whole Manga for me, - or he simply doesn't want to have to do anything with Hinata, till the things happen that happen in the movie.
And neither of these possibilities is truly good romance.
They could have done sooo much better.


I didn't mean necessarily the war arc - but a war arc with a bit more things happening around it would have been truly better.
But actually it starts way before it, with Sasuke 'killing' Itachi and/or the Pain arc. In my opinion everything afterwards happened too fast and many topics were cut short or left out.

Honestly he could have done NS with so many different possibilities.

I for example even liked the fake confession scene. If it would have been done a bit differently and the implications were different, it would have made an incredible NS scene. Because NS just needs that kind of drama^^
Plus NS needs somewhere a point, that tells the reader, that it is not simply an ridiculous and selfish obsession.

With the rest, I agree with a lot that Nate River wrote above.
But I don't think that the Manga needed so much more NH romance. That NH doesn't have as much focus as SS and NS has its reasons.
The NH romance doesn't have to be the best
romance ever written - the movie just had to make sure that everything is believable and smooth from the storyline and characters, which it sadly didn't manage to do that well.

Watching the NS scene I personally had the impression that they both knew that it was kitten what she said about the rivalry thing. That it was a bad attempt to remove the last burden preventing him from 'chasing' Hinata fully. (Besides making him indirectly clear that she will always love Sasuke and Hinata him)

[Aevrum]

We'll have to agree to disagree on the pacing. :) But yeah, if he had wanted to do Naruto longer, doing a few other things besiddes the war arc would have been nice.
 
Two years had passed, I believe Naruto -has- moved on, personally. There is no romantic NS in the movie to show otherwise. Sakura's explanation is oddly more to tell Naruto that his feelings for Hinata and vice-versa are real, that she did not betray him, and had left for altruistic reasons.
 
I once read a reading of Naruto that suggested he was in touch with other's feelings, but not himself, and that he could not understand true love, because he did not have parents to see to relate to it. I think that's the closest reading to get to understand why Naruto seems such an idiot in it. In the Shikamaru/Temari reference, they weren't really on a date anyway, but we as readers know that they admire eachother's strengths, so it can come off humorous/telling.
 
I wouldn't really put the marry a girl like her anywhere in anyone's shipping steps. If anything Naruto just showed that he didn't really know what he was looking for (Nor was it the itme).
 
I don't get a feeling at all that NH is just second place/rebound. That's primarily because there was no romance at all. And NH to be honest was always a rival pairing in what could have happened and did happened, and they admittedly had their relationship development.
 
But with the above I agree a lot, all of the pairings, actual, or potential, could have benefited with a bit more romance used. As much as I am defending Naruto's reasons of being idiotic as being the reason why he didn't see it, it's not the best reason as you are pointing out, but it is the "In character" reason in place of the real reason: Kishimoto didn't want to deal with this in the manga.

I tried to tell with that 'marrying-a-girl' talk with his father, that he did already there 'move on' (or at least accept the realities) from Sakura.

Many dialogues, actions and thoughts during the war arc are there to slowly 'manifest' NH and 'defuse' NS [with showing it in a more comradely light and pouring more humor into it (joking with his father)], to path the way.
The talk was just the last step and I think things were pretty obvious, when he says that not everything can go like his mother wishes.
That the things are often ambiguous doesn't change the simple facts of what literally happened before and what it implies.

If you honestly believe that the "he's an idiot" thing in this context is "in character", we have to simply agree to disagree.^^
We were shown throughout the whole series with many examples (The Shika/Tema thing is classic Naruto humor - but that doesn't make it any less valid, and they obviously don't have to be on a real date to tease them) that he actually understood romantic love pretty pretty well - only romantic affection shown TO HIM by outstanders was a bit outside of his vision, mostly because of his past and not thinking that it is even possible, and was even a bit of a running gag in non-canon pieces.
Additionally with Hinata he at first just thought that she is weird and simply acts like that - but then again, he recognized her weird behavior, he was not oblivious to it.

After everything that happened after the Pain arc and Neiji literally telling it him in his face, and how he reacts afterwards, how can someone say he didn't understand?
Go on and watch the whole SS and NS thing in the whole Manga, with keeping in mind that he does 'not understand a thing about romantic love' - it will make no sense at all.

If he is in touch with others' feelings, does that not also mean that he understands them? Where are you drawing the boundaries there? Shouldn't he have been also in touch with Hinata's feelings?
And for God's sake - what is 'true' love?
So he can only detect 'lesser' feelings?

Moreover it makes him look like a non-human without own feelings. What does 'not himself' mean? Only because you had no parents, you are not a person who has enormous problems to understand love, that's just stupid.

He actually dealt with romance at the end - at least as much as he minimally had to.
If he didn't, we would have no basis at all to discuss on and the movie wouldn't have had anything to resolve in the first place.
I repeat myself, but again, there was romance before the movie. And I would say A LOT more than in the movie. It even starts with the very first 'real' story chapter and goes through till the end.
If you have three confession-like scenes in the series and so many panels solely dedicated to romance, you can't say that "there was no romance at all".

You can say that there was not enough romance (I fully agree that there was not enough romance near the end) - but the story's main focus is simply not romance.

Edited by Aevrum, 09 July 2017 - 05:21 PM.

[Catra]

came to drop this off cuz its the most beautiful image of adult naruto ever

http://narutoshippuu.../Uzumaki_Naruto

 

cant link the image because gey

[VanitasDS76491]

came to drop this off cuz its the most beautiful image of adult naruto ever
http://narutoshippuu.../Uzumaki_Naruto
 
cant link the image because gey

Nice that image looks better than his current one and his the last design in that wiki looks better. Only problem I see is two of his kids names.

[Catra]

id like to know who drew/edited the image if it is.

[Nostradamus]

came to drop this off cuz its the most beautiful image of adult naruto ever

http://narutoshippuu.../Uzumaki_Naruto

 

cant link the image because gey

Looks like someone doesn't like scumbag Naruto wannabe Obito.

Edited by Nostradamus, 10 July 2017 - 01:01 AM.

[rocci]

I didn't define true love when I used the word, my mistake. Basically something more than infatuation is what I should have used, and omitted "true" altogether. It's surprisingly not uncommon to see something more clearer when you are outside of a situation, and not in, which is what I mean by understanding feelings in other situation's, but not your own.
 
And by "idiot", it's more to Naruto's brashness, charge without thinking. Anyway, not going to defend this one too much more, as I honestly just believe while it is what they are working with, it sadly only works so much.
 
Lastly by romance, I mean incorporating elements, not turning it into a romantic story. Many stories of varied genres incorporate romance without it taking over the plot, the romance acting as a sort of chronic tension underneath the acute tension of the plot.
 
The image is actually a really nice one of Naruto, though that looks more like 17 year old Naruto.

Sorry but naruto know what is romantic love and he love sakura and not only crush or something. The manga show it.

Yes, nh is a second place. That's why the last retcon naruto feeling so Hinata is the first love and not second place. The same could be said to NS have it happen.

While it's not a plot, it's also not incorporate. Romance in naruto is a subplot. Especially when the protagonist and title character active in the said subplot.

[James S Cassidy]

Just gonna leave this here from the third databook



Anyway, I thought about something else.

So in Naruto Gaiden it is explained that when Sakura was pregnant she went to go find Karin and the two of them went on a journey to find Sasuke only to not find him within in the 9 months they were searching....or whatever.

There are many problems with this so called "explanation" with the fact that
1. Why did Sakura go to Karin at all?
2. How did Sakura know where Karin was, but not Sasuke?
3. How did they not find him within the 9 months when Karin can detect chakra?
4. How can a pregnant woman do all of these strenuous things? Sure the first couple of months might be nothing, but real pregnant women can barely bend over let alone travel the world looking for someone in thick forest.
5. How did Naruto not know about any of this when he is supposedly the best friends of the two?
6. How the !@#$ did Naruto not know about any of this when he is Hokage? I am sure someone would have saw Sakura leave.

and probably many more questions, but I thought of another problem...

Why didn't Sakura just go to Naruto in the first place? Naruto obviously has a direct hardline, if not, the exact means to contact Sasuke and tell him to come back. Why go to Karin in the first place? How coincidental that Sakura wanted to keep her pregnancy a secret, even from Naruto, and seek out the OTHER girl that Sasuke had a fling with. (I say fling, because she is the closest thing he had to a girlfriend)

Every day, I find more and more reason why this story makes no sense.

Seriously, what is easier to believe? Sakura kept it all a secret from everyone some how, even Naruto, left without anyone noticing, and sought after Karin who so happen couldn't find Sasuke despite being able to sense chakra and they both disappeared for 9 months until Salad was born only to come back to the village with no one ever questioning.

OR

Karin had a fling with Sasuke while he was on his "retreat" to which Karin became pregnant and went to Sakura for help. Gave birth to Salad and to cover it up gave the child to Sakura to take care of only to keep the umbilical cord and gave Sakura her glasses and a picture of Sasuke for Salad to find. Which explains why Naruto didn't know about any of this until after the fact. They make this huge lie to everyone, even Salad, to prevent the secret from getting out that Sasuke gives no kittens Sakura and Sakura only keeps the kid because her obsession with Sasuke and it makes her feel like she is part of the family.


 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 10 July 2017 - 05:13 PM.

[Phantom_999]

I think saying love is second place is not understanding love? There is no competition? That's my opinion.

 

I mean if I don't end up with my first target that I tried to court for years, but get wooed by another person, and I marry them, that girl is not second place. The victory is marriage? (Why would we even call it that when it wasn't an IC competition between the two?) That's my thoughts.

 

That's assuming you fall for your second love GENUINELY, and not seeking them as a replacement for not getting together with your first love.

 

1. Did Naruto and And Sakura sort through their relationship on a believable and amicable level so Naruto can move on to Hinata? NO. Sakura straight up told her "best friend" that his feelings for her were just him competing with Sasuke and wanting to win her like a trophy, WHICH BY THE WAY  is b#!! s%*@ for the fact that Sakura was not Sasuke's girlfriend, she was a fan girl amongst the other 100+ fangirls Sasuke had at the academy. If that WERE the case, why didn't Naruto pick another fangirl then to "compete against Sasuke?" 

 

2. When the phrase gold medal, silver medal, etc. is used on the topic of love, it does not mean competition of who gets first place or the like. It is a metaphor of, are you picking your second love (silver medal) because you genuinely love them and can appreciate and see them for who they are and accept that completely? or are you taking it because you could not get, or are burned by the first love (gold medal), and are only seeking a consolation prize?

 

3. this intertwines with  2. DID Naruto fall in love with Hinata because he he genuinely loves and comes to know and appreciate her as her own person or was he ( quite literally) coerced into loving her because Sakura said that BS line to him, Shikamaru told him to marry into a rich, powerful family to increase his chances of Being Hokage, and Naruto had to SEE a genjutsu of how much Hinata loves him and feels he owes it to her to return her feelings? Where has it been shown in the manga, or hell, even the "The Last" movie that Naruto actually emotionally bonded with Hinata and became closer to her other than for superficial reasons and "sympathizing with her circumstances"? Naruto only felt sympathy towards her in the manga because he sees that she is also fighting tooth and nail to be acknowledged by others because of her failures, and in the movie he was assigned to help find Toneri to get back Hanabi's eyes, which by the way I would assume even NARUTO is showing more concern for Hanabi being blinded, whereas Hinata was more worried about knitting him a scarf.

 

My point is, Naruto has no realistic development or bonding point with Hinata to ever make them transitioning to being a couple believable. He had to be "brainwashed" by a genjutsu showing how deep Hinata's feelings for him were, and felt he had to respond to them. But he couldn't pick up on her love for him even as she declared it to him during her "suicide" against Pain. Second love. Consolation prize. Spot the difference?   

Edited by Phantom_999, 10 July 2017 - 06:56 PM.

[Aevrum]

I didn't define true love when I used the word, my mistake. Basically something more than infatuation is what I should have used, and omitted "true" altogether. It's surprisingly not uncommon to see something more clearer when you are outside of a situation, and not in, which is what I mean by understanding feelings in other situation's, but not your own.
 
And by "idiot", it's more to Naruto's brashness, charge without thinking. Anyway, not going to defend this one too much more, as I honestly just believe while it is what they are working with, it sadly only works so much.
 
Lastly by romance, I mean incorporating elements, not turning it into a romantic story. Many stories of varied genres incorporate romance without it taking over the plot, the romance acting as a sort of chronic tension underneath the acute tension of the plot.
 
The image is actually a really nice one of Naruto, though that looks more like 17 year old Naruto.

I know what you mean and understand the things you talk about - the things they are trying to go with -, but that's the point I am talking about the whole time and you said now:

It doesn't simply work that well.
The course they decided to take with The Last is just bad. It doesn't matter how you look at it - NH and all the rest could have been resolved way better.

Plus how they decided to continue with the Boruto movie just makes it look even worse.
Honestly, whose idea was it to include such a generic boring family-kid drama into it after the things we got during the main story? It feels like a show now only for pre-adolescent kids in puberty.
I miss the darker atmosphere pre-timeskip, where I could 'feel' the evilness from certain characters - but enough ranting, that's a whole different story.

I agree with your thoughts on the 'cronic' romance - it was there for a long time, but didn't live and grew and made it to the later parts.

[James S Cassidy]

Naruto did fall for his second love genuinely. There is no seeking of replacement.

No, he didn't. Once again, bringing Junko, WHO PLAYS NARUTO, she herself did NOT feel a loving aura between Naruto and Hinata.

If you have to be guilt tripped and brainwashed to "love someone else" then it is not love. I am not sure how else to explain this. When you even have the women (Yes, even the English voice actress) who play Naruto as a character saying "There is no love between them" I don't know what else to say.

You can't just insert something that doesn't exist in the first place. It is just not there. It will never be there and even now it is never there. If he was truly in love, why did he ignore here for so long? She confessed to him and he still ignored her for 2-3 years until apparently Toneri came out of nowhere. Naruto does not treat Hinata like a lover or a true love. He treats her the same way Sasuke treats Sakura..."She is just there to bear my children."

I'd even argue that Hinata doesn't truly love Naruto either, but rather she just obsesses over him like a trophy husband. You know how I know this? Because two people truly in love, and I know this from massive experience, don't care abut their own needs, but rather the needs of the person they love.

Hinata cared more about Naruto noticing her than Naruto's own happiness. Proof is in the pudding.

To quote Good Will Hunting:
"You don't know about real loss, 'cause it only occurs when you've loved something more than you love yourself."

To which Hinata doesn't. Everything she has done, she has done in the name of being selfish WHICH SHE HERSELF ADMITTED.



This panel always struck out to me. The way Naruto is looking at Sakura is the look of man who is full of regrets. Full of a lot of things he wished were different. A man does not look at another woman like that unless he realizes that looking at someone else...someone who they truly wanted...has left a huge meaning in their existence.

Naruto is all about visuals as well as words. And they say a picture is worth a thousand words.

In all of it, all of the works of this series written and drawn by Kishimoto....Naruto is always the happiest when he is with Sakura, smiles his genuine smile when he is with Sakura, and acts more like himself around her. None of this is what he is like around Hinata. Around Hinata, he never smiles, never himself, and never happy. You can see the misery on his face...

Naruto, in fact, hates Hinata so much that he can;t even stand his own kids. He drinks out all night, comes home super late and sleeps on the couch. Confirmed by SP themselves. More evidence is how much he has taken to Salad and yet ignore his own kid like crazy. Can you imagine a father who tells his own kid to "kitten off" while pampering to his best friends kid?

I am telling you, in real life, their relationship is horrible. Same with SSs. I know people just like NH in real life and they are miserable, hate each other, and only reason why they are together is because of the kids.

That is why his son is named "Bolt" because that is the only thing holding the family together. No joke, this is exactly why he was named this way.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 10 July 2017 - 11:51 PM.

[Yojeveka]

Naruto did fall for his second love genuinely. There is no seeking of replacement.

 

The purpose of Naruto's and Sakura's talk isn't to talk about Naruto and Sakura's relationship, but Sakura saying that Hinata's love for Naruto did not fade/was not fake/she did not betray him. Honestly, after thinking about it, I'm fine with it that way, I'd rather have Naruto and Sakura maybe talk about it after 699 or something, but weirdly, I want Naruto to make the decision not to pursue her anymore and bless her choice of Sasuke. I feel like that would show a very mature action from Naruto. Or maybe they kiss or something sweet, tasting what could have been but ultimately denying themselves of it. Or maybe they do date but it doesn't work out. A lot of fun NS tragic possibilities to play with romantically to really squeeze heart strings without it going against the Last. It makes me want to write an NS fic where they are together for a while, but things just tear it apart.

 

For the last point: Guys, this Hinata is showing more concern for her scarf is as ridiculous as Hinata not caring about Neji as he died, or Sakura being abusive (Not from anywhere here, mind, just adding another example). We need to stop such baseless statements that are just absolutely absurd.

 

Then why would she mention this topic at all? She could've just focus on Hinata's feelings. It's simple: SP needed to explain how come Naruto doesn't love Sakura anymore (or rather, "he never truly loved her")

 

And which baseless statements? No matter how you look at it, thinking of a scarf during such an important mission is really messed up. What kind of big sister does that? She couldn't even wait until they succeded rescuing Hanabi. 

[VanitasDS76491]

No, he didn't. Once again, bringing Junko, WHO PLAYS NARUTO, she herself did NOT feel a loving aura between Naruto and Hinata.
If you have to be guilt tripped and brainwashed to "love someone else" then it is not love. I am not sure how else to explain this. When you even have the women (Yes, even the English voice actress) who play Naruto as a character saying "There is no love between them" I don't know what else to say.
You can't just insert something that doesn't exist in the first place. It is just not there. It will never be there and even now it is never there. If he was truly in love, why did he ignore here for so long? She confessed to him and he still ignored her for 2-3 years until apparently Toneri came out of nowhere. Naruto does not treat Hinata like a lover or a true love. He treats her the same way Sasuke treats Sakura..."She is just there to bear my children."
I'd even argue that Hinata doesn't truly love Naruto either, but rather she just obsesses over him like a trophy husband. You know how I know this? Because two people truly in love, and I know this from massive experience, don't care abut their own needs, but rather the needs of the person they love.
Hinata cared more about Naruto noticing her than Naruto's own happiness. Proof is in the pudding.
To quote Good Will Hunting:
"You don't know about real loss, 'cause it only occurs when you've loved something more than you love yourself."
To which Hinata doesn't. Everything she has done, she has done in the name of being selfish WHICH SHE HERSELF ADMITTED.
This panel always struck out to me. The way Naruto is looking at Sakura is the look of man who is full of regrets. Full of a lot of things he wished were different. A man does not look at another woman like that unless he realizes that looking at someone else...someone who they truly wanted...has left a huge meaning in their existence.
Naruto is all about visuals as well as words. And they say a picture is worth a thousand words.
In all of it, all of the works of this series written and drawn by Kishimoto....Naruto is always the happiest when he is with Sakura, smiles his genuine smile when he is with Sakura, and acts more like himself around her. None of this is what he is like around Hinata. Around Hinata, he never smiles, never himself, and never happy. You can see the misery on his face...
Naruto, in fact, hates Hinata so much that he can;t even stand his own kids. He drinks out all night, comes home super late and sleeps on the couch. Confirmed by SP themselves. More evidence is how much he has taken to Salad and yet ignore his own kid like crazy. Can you imagine a father who tells his own kid to "kitten off" while pampering to his best friends kid?
I am telling you, in real life, their relationship is horrible. Same with SSs. I know people just like NH in real life and they are miserable, hate each other, and only reason why they are together is because of the kids.
That is why his son is named "Bolt" because that is the only thing holding the family together. No joke, this is exactly why he was named this way.

Wait did maile actually say something like that?
I agree on everything you said. Especially that hinata being selfish and Naruto hating hinata.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

 

That's assuming you fall for your second love GENUINELY, and not seeking them as a replacement for not getting together with your first love.

 

1. Did Naruto and And Sakura sort through their relationship on a believable and amicable level so Naruto can move on to Hinata? NO. Sakura straight up told her "best friend" that his feelings for her were just him competing with Sasuke and wanting to win her like a trophy, WHICH BY THE WAY  is b#!! s%*@ for the fact that Sakura was not Sasuke's girlfriend, she was a fan girl amongst the other 100+ fangirls Sasuke had at the academy. If that WERE the case, why didn't Naruto pick another fangirl then to "compete against Sasuke?" 

 

2. When the phrase gold medal, silver medal, etc. is used on the topic of love, it does not mean competition of who gets first place or the like. It is a metaphor of, are you picking your second love (silver medal) because you genuinely love them and can appreciate and see them for who they are and accept that completely? or are you taking it because you could not get, or are burned by the first love (gold medal), and are only seeking a consolation prize?

 

3. this intertwines with  2. DID Naruto fall in love with Hinata because he he genuinely loves and comes to know and appreciate her as her own person or was he ( quite literally) coerced into loving her because Sakura said that BS line to him, Shikamaru told him to marry into a rich, powerful family to increase his chances of Being Hokage, and Naruto had to SEE a genjutsu of how much Hinata loves him and feels he owes it to her to return her feelings? Where has it been shown in the manga, or hell, even the "The Last" movie that Naruto actually emotionally bonded with Hinata and became closer to her other than for superficial reasons and "sympathizing with her circumstances"? Naruto only felt sympathy towards her in the manga because he sees that she is also fighting tooth and nail to be acknowledged by others because of her failures, and in the movie he was assigned to help find Toneri to get back Hanabi's eyes, which by the way I would assume even NARUTO is showing more concern for Hanabi being blinded, whereas Hinata was more worried about knitting him a scarf.

 

My point is, Naruto has no realistic development or bonding point with Hinata to ever make them transitioning to being a couple believable. He had to be "brainwashed" by a genjutsu showing how deep Hinata's feelings for him were, and felt he had to respond to them. But he couldn't pick up on her love for him even as she declared it to him during her "suicide" against Pain. Second love. Consolation prize. Spot the difference?   

Not to mention that both the novel version of The Last and even Kishimoto himself stated that Naruto only really got with Hinata out of pity.

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

Just gonna leave this here from the third databook



Anyway, I thought about something else.

So in Naruto Gaiden it is explained that when Sakura was pregnant she went to go find Karin and the two of them went on a journey to find Sasuke only to not find him within in the 9 months they were searching....or whatever.

There are many problems with this so called "explanation" with the fact that
1. Why did Sakura go to Karin at all?
2. How did Sakura know where Karin was, but not Sasuke?
3. How did they not find him within the 9 months when Karin can detect chakra?
4. How can a pregnant woman do all of these strenuous things? Sure the first couple of months might be nothing, but real pregnant women can barely bend over let alone travel the world looking for someone in thick forest.
5. How did Naruto not know about any of this when he is supposedly the best friends of the two?
6. How the !@#$ did Naruto not know about any of this when he is Hokage? I am sure someone would have saw Sakura leave.

and probably many more questions, but I thought of another problem...

Why didn't Sakura just go to Naruto in the first place? Naruto obviously has a direct hardline, if not, the exact means to contact Sasuke and tell him to come back. Why go to Karin in the first place? How coincidental that Sakura wanted to keep her pregnancy a secret, even from Naruto, and seek out the OTHER girl that Sasuke had a fling with. (I say fling, because she is the closest thing he had to a girlfriend)

Every day, I find more and more reason why this story makes no sense.

Seriously, what is easier to believe? Sakura kept it all a secret from everyone some how, even Naruto, left without anyone noticing, and sought after Karin who so happen couldn't find Sasuke despite being able to sense chakra and they both disappeared for 9 months until Salad was born only to come back to the village with no one ever questioning.

OR

Karin had a fling with Sasuke while he was on his "retreat" to which Karin became pregnant and went to Sakura for help. Gave birth to Salad and to cover it up gave the child to Sakura to take care of only to keep the umbilical cord and gave Sakura her glasses and a picture of Sasuke for Salad to find. Which explains why Naruto didn't know about any of this until after the fact. They make this huge lie to everyone, even Salad, to prevent the secret from getting out that Sasuke gives no kittens Sakura and Sakura only keeps the kid because her obsession with Sasuke and it makes her feel like she is part of the family.


 

 

You sure nailed it, James, but you are so good at this anyhoo