68 replies to this topic

[Narufan85]

The only pattern I notice here is that all the girls in this series are hated for liking Sasuke. Sasuke, Sasuke, Sasuke, Sasuke, Sasuke....why is he so popular? Why? People say it is because of this "cool guy" persona, but why do they ignore all the abuse he has given to so many that didn't deserve and even now to this day?

What am I missing? How can this guy make every girl, no matter who they are, get so much hate all because they fall "in love" with him. How do all the girls fall in love with him when he gives them nothing to fall in love with?

What sort of delusion are girls seeing today? No offense to the females here, but what the hell is up with the girls falling in the love with the biggest douchebags on the planet? The same girls then complain on why they can't have romance or nice guys in their life, but they always fall for the wrong people. Not that I can say much seeing how I seem to always fall for the girls who apparently hate affection so much and even just hugging them is considered rape to them, but...what the hell happened?

A time ago, it used to be that Prince Charming was the go to guy and now....now all I see is "how cool Sasuke is" and how "he is so sexy" but the dude gives no craps and would rather be a loner the rest of his life. Yet if I tried to be that way, I get insulted and called a bad guy.

Why? Why is all this happening? Why couldn't NaruSaku be together and actually be a happy loving family? Why did it have to be this shallow, one dimensional, family drama that leads to nothing and NOBODY learns a lesson in anything?

Why are some people okay with this and even think it is amazing writing? Why is Karin and Naruto moving on seen as strength, but Sakura moving on seen as weakness? Why....

Why don't I belong in this world any more?

My idea of love is when you truly care for someone. When you're willing to anything for them and in turn they are the same for you. Where you want to be in their arms and have nights where it is just the two of you. Where you can have romantic and sexy night and not be ashamed of it. Where you trust each other so much that you can tell them anything and not be ashamed or afraid that they will think negatively of you. Like someone put an angel on earth to save you and just you. Where you go through anything and be happy. Politics, wars, religion, none of it mattered...just the two of you.

Apparently "true love" today is living in fear every day, neglect, anger, frustration...."sex is bad and even thinking about having sex makes you a rapist," and living in a fake delusional fantasy world where in real life you are so neglected that even the other person just spitting in your direction is more romantic than anything. You're so thirsty for attention you become obsessive and craving for even a glance.

 

I'll be honest...this world really makes me want to put a bullet in my head sometimes. I know that sounds dark, but if this is truly what the world has come to, then there is no point in living it because apparently me being the "nice, loving, hopeless romantic guy" makes me the biggest "Sexist, rapist, misogynist, women hating man on the planet," but a guy who hits you, calls you names, tells you to get back in the kitchen, doesn't give a kitten whether you live or die is the "new age hottie" that every girl wants to bang harder than a drum.

I'm sorry for being so dark about this, but this is all I have been feeling lately and this entire Naruto fandom is making me feel like life and love are nothing more than words to justify the cruelest reasons why people do the most disgusting acts against each other.

Being in love used to mean something.....now it means nothing. People used to say that Gay Marriage would have killed the sanctity of love and such....no, it was already bleeding and dead on the ground before any of that was a thought...and these new age "love affairs" are the downfall of it all.

 

yeup...the entire series is full of "terrible women" according to Kishimoto.

 

There's a lot to unpack here and my better judgment is telling me to leave this alone, but I just want to touch on a few points. I think a lot of the appeal for certain ships is just the fact that they're aesthetically appealing. Like, SS is a visually appealing couple. Same with Zutara. Are they the logical pairings based on development in their respective works? Nope. But from a solely visual standpoint, I think that's a big draw. And also, I think a lot of people are really good at compartmentalizing stuff and ignoring actual character traits in favor of shipping a couple for whatever reason they want. Why else are there people who ship Sansa with Littlefinger or talk about how Ramsay is attractive? 

 

On another note,  we really need to be cognizant of the fine line between being a nice, genuine person and being a Nice Guy^tm. 

 

The reason I say they make no sense is because Sasuke bailed on Konoha was because of bonds. He was forced by the system into a team and despite his desires to the contrary, ended up forming bonds with this teammates. He lated complains those bonds hindered him.

So, naturally, the first thing he does upon going completely solo is form a new team.

Taka's creation, especially at the time he does it, makes no sense in light of his personal experience and motivation. The reason for this was to aid in his pursuit of Itachi, but they never do that. Itachi comes to him and no one interferes in the fight.

I'll grant you that there are things he could have done to make it better and that potential does exist, but I think their entire introduction would have to be redone to deal with glaring issue of Sasuke repeating an experience he just openly stated was a problem. But with one exception, they were always characters in search of role and that's generally not a good place to be.

It appears the real divide between you and I on this is I'm more focused on what they were when I say they should not exist and your more focused on what they could have been in the hands of a better author. As I said, I'll agree that they could have been much better than they ended up being.

 

I'm rather cynical about it at this point, but I'm inclined to believe this is just a case of Kishi not paying attention to the details or internal logic of his manga. Someone said (or he thought), "Hey! I need a vehicle to give my man Sasuke more page time." So he gave him a team.

Edited by Narufan85, 14 July 2015 - 12:56 AM.

[tricksie]

 

There's a lot to unpack here and my better judgment is telling me to leave this alone, but I just want to touch on a few points. I think a lot of the appeal for certain ships is just the fact that they're aesthetically appealing. Like, SS is a visually appealing couple. Same with Zutara. Are they the logical pairings based on development in their respective works? Nope. But from a solely visual standpoint, I think that's a big draw. And also, I think a lot of people are really good at compartmentalizing stuff and ignoring actual character traits in favor of shipping a couple for whatever reason they want. Why else are there people who ship Sansa with Littlefinger or talk about how Ramsay is attractive? 

 

On another note,  we really need to be cognizant of the fine line between being a nice, genuine person and being a Nice Guy^tm. 

 

 

I'm rather cynical about it at this point, but I'm inclined to believe this is just a case of Kishi not paying attention to the details or internal logic of his manga. Someone said (or he thought), "Hey! I need a vehicle to give my man Sasuke more page time." So he gave him a team.

 *shudders*

 

Gag. I...can't...even.... Either one is just....

 

*shudders again*

[Bryon_Konoha_Ninja]

 *shudders*

 

Gag. I...can't...even.... Either one is just....

 

*shudders again*

 

It's OK, it's OK, Tricks... I'm here, we're here, we're all here... just breathe... 

[James S Cassidy]

 

There's a lot to unpack here and my better judgment is telling me to leave this alone, but I just want to touch on a few points. I think a lot of the appeal for certain ships is just the fact that they're aesthetically appealing. Like, SS is a visually appealing couple. Same with Zutara. Are they the logical pairings based on development in their respective works? Nope. But from a solely visual standpoint, I think that's a big draw. And also, I think a lot of people are really good at compartmentalizing stuff and ignoring actual character traits in favor of shipping a couple for whatever reason they want. Why else are there people who ship Sansa with Littlefinger or talk about how Ramsay is attractive? 

 

On another note,  we really need to be cognizant of the fine line between being a nice, genuine person and being a Nice Guy^tm. 

Or what we can do is stop drawing fine lines and actually have a clear definition of everything instead of just making excuses to not pay attention to the major fault with people that may or may not make or break a relationship. Apparently people draw fine lines in things that already have clear definitions. For example...the difference between "Tolerance" and "Acceptance." Apparently to some, there is no difference.

As for "visually appealing couple" I have to wonder how is it visually appealing at all except for the massive fan arts that make it visually appealing and not the actual media itself. Which is a sad reality people are not seeing. They are not in love with what it is, but rather what they think it is.

 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 14 July 2015 - 06:25 AM.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

Or what we can do is stop drawing fine lines and actually have a clear definition of everything instead of just making excuses to not pay attention to the major fault with people that may or may not make or break a relationship. Apparently people draw fine lines in things that already have clear definitions. For example...the difference between "Tolerance" and "Acceptance." Apparently to some, there is no difference.

As for "visually appealing couple" I have to wonder how is it visually appealing at all except for the massive fan arts that make it visually appealing and not the actual media itself. Which is a sad reality people are not seeing. They are not in love with what it is, but rather what they think it is.

 

To put it simply - such pairing lovers have shallow crushes on the pairings themselves just like Sakura/Hinata with Sasuke/Naruto. They love them for who they want them to be and create a whole bubble fantasy world containing all their most idealized scenarios in their mind that will also instantly convert any bad things into "justified" good things, but not who they truly are, again, just converting it into what they want, and damn any evidence saying otherwise. .

Unfortunately, I see similar things when it comes to Gundam SEED/SEED Destiny with people who think Kira Yamato and Lacus Clyne are somehow this "perfect" couple, yet when I ask what exactly makes them such a great couple, 99% of the time, I'll only get, "Because they look cute together" (other 1% being simply because they have similar ideals or something). Nothing on any individual or mutual romantic development throughout the series after meeting or anything, unlike Athrun Zala and Cagalli Yula Atha (in SEED anyway).

[James S Cassidy]

To put it simply - such pairing lovers have shallow crushes on the pairings themselves just like Sakura/Hinata with Sasuke/Naruto. They love them for who they want them to be and create a whole bubble fantasy world containing all their most idealized scenarios in their mind that will also instantly convert any bad things into "justified" good things, but not who they truly are, again, just converting it into what they want, and damn any evidence saying otherwise. .

Unfortunately, I see similar things when it comes to Gundam SEED/SEED Destiny with people who think Kira Yamato and Lacus Clyne are somehow this "perfect" couple, yet when I ask what exactly makes them such a great couple, 99% of the time, I'll only get, "Because they look cute together" (other 1% being simply because they have similar ideals or something). Nothing on any individual or mutual romantic development throughout the series after meeting or anything, unlike Athrun Zala and Cagalli Yula Atha (in SEED anyway).

Which is such a crap logic...especially when the manga just plays with so many reasons why they SHOULDN'T be together. I mean, Naruto just gives all the reasons why these couples are not healthy or good for the characters, but the fandoms just blatantly ignore it all.

"Sasuke loves Sakura very much and always wanted to be with her."
"He hasn't been with her for over 12 years and even refuses to kiss her."
"Yeup, he totally can't stand being away from her."

It's worse when the author writes stuff like "Sakura filled Sasuke lonely heart" in the Gaiden/Bolt artbooks, but in the manga itself Sasuke says it was Naruto. Like what the hell? Who the hell is writing this stuff really? Either Kishimoto can't keep his story straight or he is not writing any of it.

As with Kira and Lacus...well, the reason why I like them is hard to explain. While Kira is not a bad guy he does have problems and is kind of dark. I always saw Lacus as the lightness he never knew. Not to say that other didn't give him some light, but rather a kind of levity to his heart. Like a part that he needed not the part that he wanted. Hard to explain from my end.

Like, finding completion in someone who you never expected.





 

Edited by James S Cassidy, 14 July 2015 - 07:34 AM.

[TheFirstEvil100]

To put it simply - such pairing lovers have shallow crushes on the pairings themselves just like Sakura/Hinata with Sasuke/Naruto. They love them for who they want them to be and create a whole bubble fantasy world containing all their most idealized scenarios in their mind that will also instantly convert any bad things into "justified" good things, but not who they truly are, again, just converting it into what they want, and damn any evidence saying otherwise. .

Unfortunately, I see similar things when it comes to Gundam SEED/SEED Destiny with people who think Kira Yamato and Lacus Clyne are somehow this "perfect" couple, yet when I ask what exactly makes them such a great couple, 99% of the time, I'll only get, "Because they look cute together" (other 1% being simply because they have similar ideals or something). Nothing on any individual or mutual romantic development throughout the series after meeting or anything, unlike Athrun Zala and Cagalli Yula Atha (in SEED anyway).

Yeah I feel the same with Kira and Lacus as a couple it just makes no sense if you ask me I mean why her what makes her so good and the fact that as some say she is a little of a sue and she is in some ways I mean everyone loves her and does what she says, buty that is another topic.

 

I mean its sad that most people have couples together beacuse they are either "Cute" or "Perfect" and I don't like it I like couples that are built up and shown their feelings grow to each other other time.

[James S Cassidy]

Yeah I feel the same with Kira and Lacus as a couple it just makes no sense if you ask me I mean why her what makes her so good and the fact that as some say she is a little of a sue and she is in some ways I mean everyone loves her and does what she says, buty that is another topic.

 

I mean its sad that most people have couples together beacuse they are either "Cute" or "Perfect" and I don't like it I like couples that are built up and shown their feelings grow to each other other time.

Then what about couples like Rei and Takashi vs Saeko and Takashi in High School of the Dead?

Rei who used to be Takashi's GF, but then broke up with him because she says he never understood her. Went with another guy UNTIL he got bitten and died. So now, after he is gone, she wants to leach off Takashi and now all of a sudden says "I understand you, I love you, and I will never hurt you again." And I am like "Could you say this if Hisashi was still alive?" Also the fact that Rei keeps blaming Takashi for him not understanding when she never talks to him about it at all so he is left in the dark. Combine that with her never stop talking about Hisashi and how perfect he was which pisses Takashi off and for good reason because he doesn't want to hear it cause it hurts and she is so selfish in wanting attention.

Meanwhile Saeko is a bit opposite where she keeps pushing others away, but Takashi said that he accepts her for everything she is even though she thinks she is damaged and actually praises him highly. Saeko also said, unlike Rei, that she would do anything for him...even the acts of womanhood (meaning sex)...just to save him from death and insanity.

I don't know, which one sounds more appealing to you? I know this is supposed to be about Karin, but in a way the dynamic is the same. Rei (Hinata) who is obsessive and wants attention vs Saeko (sakura) who doesn't feel she deserves Takashi, but is happy he accepts her.

We also have Takagi (Karin I guess), but her dynamic is a little weird with Takashi and she seems to hint more towards Kouta so far despite first having a crush on Takashi.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 14 July 2015 - 12:51 PM.

[Phantom_999]

Yeah I ask that question myself. Is Rei just crawling back to Takashi cause her actual boyfriend died?   She annoys me when I think about it though I think that Aside they are still compatible  

Edited by Phantom_999, 14 July 2015 - 12:39 PM.

[James S Cassidy]

Yeah I ask that question myself. Is Rei just crawling back to Takashi cause her actual boyfriend died?   She annoys me when I think about it though I think that Aside they are still compatible  

And I think Kira and Lacus is compatible. Could use a little work, but nothing a little character development couldn't fix.

[TheFirstEvil100]

Then what about couples like Rei and Takashi vs Saeko and Takashi in High School of the Dead?

Rei who used to be Takashi's GF, but then broke up with him because she says he never understood her. Went with another guy UNTIL he got bitten and died. So now, after he is gone, she wants to leach off Takashi and now all of a sudden says "I understand you, I love you, and I will never hurt you again." And I am like "Could you say this if Hisashi was still alive?" Also the fact that Rei keeps blaming Takashi for him not understanding when she never talks to him about it at all so he is left in the dark. Combine that with her never stop talking about Hisashi and how perfect he was which pisses Takashi off and for good reason because he doesn't want to hear it cause it hurts and she is so selfish in wanting attention.

Meanwhile Saeko is a bit opposite where she keeps pushing others away, but Takashi said that he accepts her for everything she is even though she thinks she is damaged and actually praises him highly. Saeko also said, unlike Rei, that she would do anything for him...even the acts of womanhood (meaning sex)...just to save him from death and insanity.

I don't know, which one sounds more appealing to you? I know this is supposed to be about Karin, but in a way the dynamic is the same. Rei (Hinata) who is obsessive and wants attention vs Saeko (sakura) who doesn't feel she deserves Takashi, but is happy he accepts her.

We also have Takagi (Karin I guess), but her dynamic is a little weird with Takashi and she seems to hint more towards Kouta so far despite first having a crush on Takashi.

Well I'm not that much a fan of High School of the Dead, nor seen all that much other than the first episode and first manga chapter. So can't say much about it.

 

with Takagi I think her and Takashi are friends not sure man wish I know more about the manga and anime but sadly I know very little about it.

 

But from what you said about that pairing you bring up good points that one does sound like bad coulpe, plus like you said Kira and Lacus just need a little character development, and to show Lacus is not perfect after all humans do have flaws after all. But I think this is all thanks to GSD other than that Lacus is fine.

 

its why I stick to Ash/Misty Videl/Gohan Ranma/Akane Naomi/Seiko from corpse Party. there is more but they are the ones at the top of my head right now

[Radra]

 

And Sakura falling in love with Sasuke because he's "cool" and "hot" is?

 

....is also completely shallow which also makes it pretty stupid. It is however, not as bad as Karin planning to have her way with a weak sasuke or keeping his dirty shirt to sniff or do who knows what with. 

 

Look at it this way....

 

• Sakura/Ino loved Sasuke because he was hot and cool.
• Karin not only loved Sasuke because he was hot and cool, but she also had crazy perverted fantasies and went as far as to keep Sasuke's dirty clothes, plan to "ravage him" and so on. Unlike Sakura/ino, Sasuke actually succeeded in injuring Karin yet we saw what she did in the war arc...

 

in the end, all the Sasuke pairings for me are retarded so I guess it is pointless to establish which is worse. still karin for me was just ugh....

 

 

 

 

It's love, just like ino and sakura.

 

I would personally not put their love on the same level.

[Narufan85]

Or what we can do is stop drawing fine lines and actually have a clear definition of everything instead of just making excuses to not pay attention to the major fault with people that may or may not make or break a relationship. Apparently people draw fine lines in things that already have clear definitions. For example...the difference between "Tolerance" and "Acceptance." Apparently to some, there is no difference.
 

 

Then I will be explicit. Being a nice person is good. Treating folks with respect, being polite, listening, being compassionate, and all those other good qualities should be encouraged.

 

Being this type of "Nice guy" is manipulative and awful. I think it's a pretty clear and easy distinction to make.

 

[ThroughWithLove]

 

Then I will be explicit. Being a nice person is good. Treating folks with respect, being polite, listening, being compassionate, and all those other good qualities should be encouraged.

 

Being this type of "Nice guy" is manipulative and awful. I think it's a pretty clear and easy distinction to make.

 

 

The problem with a lot of nice guys out there is that they miss the point entirely. Being nice is great, but a lot of women are looking for someone strong/reliable. Often times, the so-called bad boy gives off the appearance of being "strong", hence why so many women chase after them. A lot of "nice guys" make the mistake of not only being nice, but also submissive doormats. This is a real turn off to a lot of women.  Nice guys should keep being nice, but should also be assertive; they should show backbone. Being nice doesn't make you weak.

 

I feel Naruto had backbone, but from an in-universe standpoint (disregarding the author being a bonehead), it's his own fault he didn't get with Sakura. He always made excuses not to tell her how he feels, ultimately giving up and settling for Hinata. If I were in Naruto's position, NaruSaku would've been canon immediately after the first timeskip; Sakura was openly flirting with the dude.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 14 July 2015 - 06:44 PM.

[sushi.]

Naruto's character is(or at least was) an anti-nice guy, but the story's narrative/message had nice-guy tendencies. Big difference.

[Nate River]

Things are getting way off topic please return to the topic at hand.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

And I think Kira and Lacus is compatible. Could use a little work, but nothing a little character development couldn't fix.

Yeah, I don't have a problem with the thought of the pairing in general, just how I don't really feel it wasn't properly conveyed in SEED/SEED Destiny if that was the intention. At best, I saw them as close friends with similar goals, but didn't really get any romance vibes from them based on watching them. Even the way she tells Athrun. after Kira returns her to him in SEED, that she's "quite fond of him (Kira)" didn't quite come off as romantic, but more like she liked the type of person he was through their talking with one another. Just add in a little blush at least and then it would seem more (the start of something) romantic.

As for Karin, I always felt she was a good character for Sasuke. If anything, one could say she was a bit like a female Naruto (not surprising considering Uzumaki blood) with the stubbornness, the way she didn't take crap from Sasuke, wasn't afraid to voice her thoughts and such, and only got better with what we got of her in the War Arc and, thankfully, one of the few characters untouched in the end by Kishi. Better she "move on" and be a "terrible woman" in Kishi's eyes than have her be 180'ed into a Hinata-style shy prude or something.

[rocci]

@james
You can't compare sakura with saeko. You should compare sakura with Rei. That's why Rei=/=Hinata.

@radra
Karin is mashocist. She's a freak more or less. That kind of thing is meant to be a comedy situation.

[xxRomanceGirlxx]

@Narufan85:

 

I'm actually freaked at how many guys in real life and fiction that I know of fit that little comic on "Nice" Guy trope.  What's even freakier is that some of these "nice" guy characters are glorified and gain too much sympathy when all they really do is b***h and whine about not having the girl notice them and go for other men when "HE DOES EVERYTHING FOR HER".

 

Naruto was never this type of Nice Guy by the end Part 1. He never complained, never expected anything, always supported the girl he loved's happiness above all this. I tend to admire these types of nice guys more. I can still like characters with minor "nice" guy tendencies, but the bitterness and constant whining just isn't as appealing as the more enduring types.

 

Of course, I'm talking about the ORIGINAL Naruto. Not the Naruto that was too busy sulking to bother saving the girl he loved since she apparently "rejected" him. 

Edited by xxRomanceGirlxx, 14 July 2015 - 10:12 PM.

[AHK]

....is also completely shallow which also makes it pretty stupid. It is however, not as bad as Karin planning to have her way with a weak sasuke or keeping his dirty shirt to sniff or do who knows what with. 
 
Look at it this way....
 

• Sakura/Ino loved Sasuke because he was hot and cool.
• Karin not only loved Sasuke because he was hot and cool, but she also had crazy perverted fantasies and went as far as to keep Sasuke's dirty clothes, plan to "ravage him" and so on. Unlike Sakura/ino, Sasuke actually succeeded in injuring Karin yet we saw what she did in the war arc...

 
in the end, all the Sasuke pairings for me are retarded so I guess it is pointless to establish which is worse. still karin for me was just ugh.
I would personally not put their love on the same level.

You forget that Sakura was just as perverted. She wanted to see Sasuke's kitten when he was 12 years old. Not only that, but Sakura was incredibly emotionally manipulative of the people around her, and Sasuke wasn't more than a prize to her. So really, tere isn't much difference between SS and SK. The only difference is that in the very end, Karin managed to show that she might have the capacity to be a decent person, while every action Sakura did showed her in a worse and worse light.

With that said, I agree with tricksie and what she said in the first page. Don't really care for Karin.