163 replies to this topic

[shadow_Uzumaki]

So, Final Boss fight before the highly likely final rival fight?  Nice.....

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

 

I agree that Naruto's morality has been altered.  That's my issue.  Yes, he's grown up, and yes, his views are a little more sophisticated, but I miss the Naruto who knew the difference between right and wrong, and although he might love and support unconditionally he didn't compromise to the point that his values were nearly unrecognizable.  

 

What bothers me is that the choice seems to be among extreme options: either killing one's friend for his sins, or bending over and taking all his BS without expressing any genuine moral outrage.  Why no middle ground there?  Why couldn't Naruto have shown Sasuke some of the passionate righteousness he showed Zabuza?  

 

Instead Naruto essentially gave Sasuke a free pass along with a commitment to give up his life for Sasuke's issues if that's what it takes.  I don't like it because Naruto is doing all the work.  Sasuke gets to be a complete jackass, do whatever the hell he wants for whatever petty, short-sighted reasons while Naruto offers to ultimately take the responsibility for making it right.

 

I don't know.  Maybe when the time comes Naruto will react more like he did with Obito, and expect Sasuke to take responsibility for what he's done.  But considering the fact that one of Sasuke's main goals is to kill Naruto, it just sickens me that much more that Naruto is seemingly blind to Sasuke's need to be held accountable.

 

Just my feelings.  I can't help it.  I love Naruto, and miss his unwavering, uncompromising righteousness. 

I know that but Sasuke's actions were nowhere near Madara's and Obito's, he's a guy that does good actions and bad actions, we can say Danzo, but the kages of the other villages already send letters about the crime he did on the kage summit by using his sharing to manipulate that guy.

So in a way Danzou was going to be tagged as a criminal too.

My guess is that, Sasuke might feel bad for what he did to his friends but most of the fault was because they went after him, he didnt asked for Naruto and Cia to go after him.

The only crime so far that he did was being a Nukenin, killing fodders and attacking the kages, may he will be accountable? i dont know, but i can easily say that he would be pretty f**cked up if he kills one of Naruto's friends.

 

But i can certainly say if Sasuke gets held accountable, it's Sasuke who will punish himself.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 30 November 2013 - 06:21 PM.

[James S Cassidy]

I know that but Sasuke's actions were nowhere near Madara's and Obito's, he's a guy that does good actions and bad actions, we can say Danzo, but the kages of the other villages already send letters about the crime he did on the kage summit by using his sharing to manipulate that guy.

So in a way Danzou was going to be tagged as a criminal too.

My guess is that, Sasuke might feel bad for what he did to his friends but most of the fault was because they went after him, he didnt asked for Naruto and Cia to go after him.

The only crime so far that he did was being a Nukenin, killing fodders and attacking the kages, may he will be accountable? i dont know, but i can easily say that he would be pretty f**cked up if he kills one of Naruto's friends.

 

But i can certainly say if Sasuke gets held accountable, it's Sasuke who will punish himself.

 

See, this is my problem with Sasuke. If his deeds are "not so bad" then what does he need redemption for? You have to do some bad things in order to redeem from them and that's what drives me even more nuts.

 

"Sasuke is going to get redeemed"
From what? If he did nothing wrong, there is nothing to be redeemed from. I rather Sasuke be a full blown bad guy and then get redeemed, than just walking this fine line between good and bad.

 

Sasuke is also not being manipulated and could argue that he made all the choices himself.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 01 December 2013 - 02:34 AM.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

 

See, this is my problem with Sasuke. If his deeds are "not so bad" then what does he need redemption for? You have to do some bad things in order to redeem from them and that's what drives me even more nuts.

 

"Sasuke is going to get redeemed"
From what? If he did nothing wrong, there is nothing to be redeemed from. I rather Sasuke be a full blown bad guy and then get redeemed, than just walking this fine line between good and bad.

 

Sasuke is also not being manipulated and could argue that he made all the choices himself.

"The only crime so far that he did was being a Nukenin, killing fodders and attacking the kages"

Sasuke has not taken his decision yet, it's going to be unleashed, he cant be full evil because he doesnt know about everything, i would say he was more of crazy than evil, now it's different he seems like determined about his goals, it depends on what he's about to do, Sasuke can make amends of his actions currently now, they can even probably dont punish him at all, but after he backstab them later then it will be another story.
 

I think we only need is to wait and see how it's going to be played i think Sasuke's case is really difficult to make any predictions.

Edited by Dαrkrєrsŧ, 01 December 2013 - 11:49 AM.

[Atheck]

If Madara is capable of personally using Hashirama's Sage Mode now then this compromise may have been worth it. Not only does it provide an avenue for him to wrest control of the Shinju (one of his long sought objectives in this battle), but it would also magnify the potency of his jutsu arsensal several fold and provide him with a recovery tool to remove any damage he might suffer in the upcoming fight (it seems that Hashirama's senjutsu was the source of his healing abilities). There is also the slim possibility that he might have the Shinsu Senju now (a personal suspicion of mine). 

 

It would almost turn Madara into a fusion of himself and Hashirama. That might be enough to give him a fighting chance in this struggle since he would essentially have power comparable to the Jubi jinchuuriki. Since Mokuton functions like an Achilles' Heel for bijuu, Naruto's BSM would be at a disadvantage by itself. Now he is capable of melding sage chakra with bijuu chakra, meaning he could try and re-implement a similar tactic like the one used against HGR, but that may not work on Madara if the senjutsu he removed from Hashirama can act as a counterweight. 

 

All in all, things will only intensify as everyone prepares themselves to fight against the last opposition of the war. 

Edited by Atheck, 01 December 2013 - 07:16 PM.

[Question22]

 

Madara: At last a real body! I can feel my blood surge and my skin dance as I fight!
Tobirama: casts a genjutsu on Madara
Madara: You can't cast a Genjutsu on a Uchiha! That's not how it works!
Tobirama: I invented Genjutsu.
Shiniobi Alliance: kitten!

[BakeNeko-Chan]

Is there a chapter this week?  

[TouKen4Life3g]

Is there a chapter this week?  

Yes. Wednesday.

[BakeNeko-Chan]

Yes. Wednesday.

 

Alright. Just wanted to make sure.

[Nate River]

Would it be weird to say this doesn't bother me as much because I realize it is supposed to be aimed at like 16 year olds? It's like watching Power Rangers or VR Troopers back in the day where saving the day was rather easy. As we grow up in our real world, we realize real life isn't that easy and life doesn't just sort it self out simply because you want it to...(Or does it? A friend of mind will get this one) So we want more stories that are compelling with problems that can't be solved with a mere force of will.

Weird? No. This is perhaps one of the longest running crutches used to excuse Kishimoto's unsatisfactory resolutions. You aren't even the first person to mention it in this thread.

It's a cheap cop out, however.

This is a guy whose manga involves child soldiers who are trained to kill at 12. The first villain turns and orphan into an assassin. Gaara's relentless abused as a child and attempts to murder Lee in cold blood in round 3. There is the Third being brought face to face with his greatest failure. He paid dearly for his hesitation and reluctance to kill. Amazingly, this has been ignored with Nagato and Obito and the Third is around for Obito. For some reason having it blow up in his face is a-okay. Naruto...manga for teenagers.

There is also Itachi who is put in a position that no matter what he chooses to do people will suffer and die. He chooses wholesale slaughter and, partly as a penance for himself, deliberately sets his beloved brother on the path that is repeatedly damned by this manga. The only true capital crime in this series is hate and Itachi nurtures that emotion within Sasuke.

So, what it comes down too...the audience is apparently mature enough to handle the blood, guts, and deeply scarred and troubled characters, but is too stupid to understand a proper resolution. It's mature enough to follow the create and set up of these deep moral delimmas, but because the target is teenagers it's excusable to not follow through on these same issues; instead settling for the simply and clean fix despite all that led up to it.

It's total crap. I firmly believe that the more likely reason is that he trying to avoid tainting his core message. An easy thing to do when you flat out ignore your ideals obvious problems.
 
 

It's like...going back to Superman and Batman. Superman is a superhero who always has the answers, who always has enough strength, and who always takes the moral high ground despite many of times it seemed like a bad idea. Sure, he could obliterate every threat that comes to him easily, but chooses not to because he wants to show compassion and inspire through hope. Not fear. This is unlike Batman whose stories are darker and the problems are not so easy to solve. He has limited abilities and has to rely more on solving the problem through complex means and even then it might not work. At times it seems only a short solution.

As someone who follow neither, I cannot vouch for what you say, except to say that, based on your description, that Kishimoto has decided he wants it both ways: He wants the Batman set up and problems with the Superman solutions.

 

I kind of want Obito to live, not because death is really too easy of a punishment to give, but rather what happens when a bad guy is giving a second chance at life to reshape his life and the world for the good instead of evil? That's why death is too easy to me. It doesn't really solve the problem, it just erases it. I want to see the problem finally become resolved and done with a character that is succinct and needs that refocus.

Kind of? C'mon man, let's be honest. It's not just kind of.

I don't have a specific path I want for Kishimoto to take as to living or dying. I vehemently object the idea letting him live is the obvious moral thing to do, but that doesn't mean I am advocating that specific path.

What I want is for Kishimoto to follow with the consequences of whatever he chooses to do. If death, the conflict between Naruto's beliefs and those who kill him. If he lives, then all the outrage that you expect from those who lost someone to him. What I don't what is what we are about to get: a resolution that skates right past all these issues.

In addition to the fact that your choice would cause both outrage and an international incident, there is also an enormous risk in letting Obito live. Ask the Third about what that risk is.

Solve what problem? You'll have to be more specific. What does having Obito live entail? Rotting in prison? You haven't defined this yet.

Besides, I think Nagato would have been a better choice.

 

I guess Sasuke's story will end this way, but with the fact that so many are willing to hand wave most of Sasuke's "evil deeds" with technicalities, I am not sure if this will be a satisfying end for either side.

I haven't seen too many people do that. For me, it's simply reality. He did it with Nagato and he's doing it with Obito. I like Sasuke, but I think Kishimoto has wasted so much with Sasuke because of his desire to protect this character from the problems that surround Obito and Nagato. I admit, I just don't understand the decent into darkness at this point. I have no idea why Kishimoto bothered given where we are right now. The resolution is going to be unsatisfactory too. Hell, it already is.

The resolution with Karin still makes we want to throw up.

 

The fact that Sasuke could do anything and Naruto is still willing to forgive him thinking he has to "save him" has kind of altered his vision of morals a bit. At least in my opinion. It seems like he doesn't want to save Sasuke because he believes Sasuke is a good guy, but rather just saving Sasuke because "He is my best friend."
 
That seems to be a common theme in this and only Kakashi kind of broke this way of thinking. Again, this is why I love Obito's story so much better than Sasuke because both Naruto and Minato felt true sympathy for Obito because of everything he went through. Yeah Obito was Minato's student, but that's not why he thought he should be spared.

Too bad they didn't feel as sorry for the people he murdered.

Everything he went through? Every time someone says that I look at Kakashi and the smidgen of sympathy I might have had for Obito dies again. Intentional or not, Kakashi is a constant example of why Obito is a piece of crap.

 

Kakashi wanted to kill his best friend and didn't think twice about it. He knew he had to and it was through Minato's means he stopped telling him that death is not the answer here. Killing brings only more killing. it is a hard choice to make to not just kill Obito outright, but it is the right choice. The "right" choices are not always the easiest.

That's inaccurate. Kakashi gave Obito the chance to stand down and when he refused he decided Obito needed to die in order to protect others. He didn't want to kill Obito, but was going to anyway because his continued existence was a threat to everyone else. He made the big boy decision Naruto avoids with Sasuke. It's one reason I think he kicks ass now. At least there was one person who was willing to do what needed to be done despite how hard it was. I know Naruto is the designated hero of this story, but I see Kakashi as the truly courageous and heroic one. I think he's filled this role far better than Naruto as of late.

Right choice? I still don't think you and Phantom have come close to proving this other than offering cheesy platitudes like "Killing bring only more killing." There is probably only one character in this whole series who deserves the gallows more than Obito and that's Madara. Maybe Danzou, but I'd have to think about it.

[alexander]

@Nate: Yes, yes and YES!

 

I agree completely, especially when you say that Kishimoto is setting up the story with Batman elements, only for it to end with an Superman conclusion. I actually understand why Obito say that living was the easy way out. Because if he lives, he would just move on and that would feel like an injustice for all the people he wronged and killed. If he dies however, he just get what he deserved plain and simple.

 

Kishimoto just try too hard to give cookie cutter conclusions for stories that have dark and mature themes to them. It's like... an porn movie ending with the actors trying to give an life lesson instead of just sex. It doesn't fit. 

 

That's why later I had been feeling really uninterested in shonens and moving to seinens. These stories at least manage to keep up the maturity as the plot progresses.

[Codus N]

@Nate: Yes, yes and YES!

 

I agree completely, especially when you say that Kishimoto is setting up the story with Batman elements, only for it to end with an Superman conclusion. I actually understand why Obito say that living was the easy way out. Because if he lives, he would just move on and that would feel like an injustice for all the people he wronged and killed. If he dies however, he just get what he deserved plain and simple.

 

It's also a cultural thing. In Japan, committing seppuku/suicide for your crimes is considered honorable, unlike in the west. So, from Obito's POV, it's perfectly justified.

 

Also, Kishimoto can write the story a hell lot better. He just chooses not to. Just look at his seinen oneshot a while back. I think it has something to do with Jump insisting on keeping the story this way, despite how much potential the manga could've had if it did enter seinen territory, like Bleach. I remember reading Bakuman and how one of the chapters had the editors discussing on the rising age demographic. Instead, they choose and even insist on churning out mangas geared towards the 13-16yrs old demographic despite the polls clearly showing that Jump's demographic is changing to a 17+ audience. Which, for some reason why, I don't know. 

 

And this is very much a fact that is happening with Jump.

Edited by Codus N, 03 December 2013 - 02:54 PM.

[Nate River]

It's also a cultural thing. In Japan, committing seppuku/suicide for your crimes is considered honorable, unlike in the west. So, from Obito's POV, it's perfectly justified.
 
Also, Kishimoto can write the story a hell lot better. He just chooses not to. Just look at his seinen oneshot a while back. I think it has something to do with Jump insisting on keeping the story this way, despite how much potential the manga could've had if it did enter seinen territory, like Bleach. I remember reading Bakuman and how one of the chapters had the editors discussing on the rising age demographic. Instead, they choose and even insist on churning out mangas geared towards the 13-16yrs old demographic despite the polls clearly showing that Jump's demographic is changing to a 17+ audience. Which, for some reason why, I don't know. 
 
And this is very much a fact that is happening with Jump.

In Kishimoto's case, I'd find it a better defense if it weren't for the fact that this story is full of dark and tragic characters who have had to deal with rather thorny moral issues. Itachi is exhibit A for this. All these thorny issues are in the development and presented to the audience, so it's weak to say that well this is a manga target at 13-16 so all problems must have simple solutions. It's fine on the front end and with many side characters, but not for any of Naruto's resolution?

I find it baffling that this is offered as a legitimate excuse.

[Dkey]

In Kishimoto's case, I'd find it a better defense if it weren't for the fact that this story is full of dark and tragic characters who have had to deal with rather thorny moral issues. Itachi is exhibit A for this. All these thorny issues are in the development and presented to the audience, so it's weak to say that well this is a manga target at 13-16 so all problems must have simple solutions. It's fine on the front end and with many side characters, but not for any of Naruto's resolution?

I find it baffling that this is offered as a legitimate excuse.

but right now nothing is given as a legitimate excuse. If indeed it's the publishing house's fault for some story fails no one will admit it.

As for Obito. We have no ideea what happened to him. if he died then having him in the spotlight for long won't matter.

[Nate River]

but right now nothing is given as a legitimate excuse. If indeed it's the publishing house's fault for some story fails no one will admit it.

As for Obito. We have no ideea what happened to him. if he died then having him in the spotlight for long won't matter.

Then their priorities are a bit bewildering. It's one thing to be consistent in oversimplifying difficult moral issues from beginning to end (Like Power Rangers as James mentioned). In certain formats, I expect it. But here, lots of complicated and people and issues are presented only to be short changed when it comes time to resolve them. Your audience can't be too immature or stupid for just half of it.

As for Obito, I don't think he's dead. I think he makes a last minute sacrifice (that ultimately kills him) at a critical juncture in an attempt to sell the idea he's not completely worthless. It's why Sasuke is "good" for the moment rather than saving this for the final battle.

[tricksie]

@Nate, a resounding yes to the whole post. But most especially this gem:

 

So, what it comes down too...the audience is apparently mature enough to handle the blood, guts, and deeply scarred and troubled characters, but is too stupid to understand a proper resolution. It's mature enough to follow the create and set up of these deep moral delimmas, but because the target is teenagers it's excusable to not follow through on these same issues; instead settling for the simply and clean fix despite all that led up to it.

 

It's a bit like a magician setting up an elaborate trick that you can't wait to see how he pulls off, only to have the magician point to the back of the room and yell "Is that a baby wolf cub?" When everyone turns back, the trick is pulled off, but the "magic" is gone.

 

Kishimoto constructs some really interesting situations for his characters, but he doesn't follow through in letting them be tested and come out as heroic in truly horrible scenarios. Kishimoto patches together redemptions (Nagato, Itachi) or simply doesn't allow the character to do something too horrific (Naruto) or too unredeemable (Sasuke). 

 

Another great quote recently was from KnS a few days ago:

What bothers me is that the choice seems to be among extreme options: either killing one's friend for his sins, or bending over and taking all his BS without expressing any genuine moral outrage.  Why no middle ground there?  Why couldn't Naruto have shown Sasuke some of the passionate righteousness he showed Zabuza?  

 

Instead Naruto essentially gave Sasuke a free pass along with a commitment to give up his life for Sasuke's issues if that's what it takes.  I don't like it because Naruto is doing all the work.  Sasuke gets to be a complete jackass, do whatever the hell he wants for whatever petty, short-sighted reasons while Naruto offers to ultimately take the responsibility for making it right.

 

Perfectly put. Naruto is truly willing to give up everything for Sasuke who doesn't want Naruto's help nor would appreciate Naruto's loss of his own goals in giving it. You're right - Naruto does all the work.

 

One last thing - there has been a lot of talk about Obito's redemption and why he should be given another chance, but the very biggest thing that flies in the face of redemption is the fact that he has asked for none. He does not want to be redeemed, he does not care about the people he has killed, from those closest to him to those way on down the line. He has no sense of loss or regret or...anything. All emotional stability, his drive for accomplishing his one moon's eye plan and his subsequent motive for killing anyone who stands in the way of that plan is his selfish desire for Rin. 

 

Not once has he ever expressed an inkling of remorse for what he's done, for personally being the reason people of all nations lost their own "Rins." For me, I can't even begin to think of his redemption until he shows some acknowledgement of what he's done, and accepts whatever fate has in store for him. 

 

I don't know which potential ending is going to tick me off more: that the Obito makes some small sacrifice, something that could never hope to equal the amount of damage he has caused in the shinobi world, and yet still get a "happy ending" with Rin waiting for him across several fan-pandering manga panels. Or the very real possibility that Obito hits a reset button like Pain did, enacting a large sacrifice and brings back the dead, the strong, etc. etc. 

 

For me, there is not a satisfactory storyline to Obito's arc that doesn't end with Obito paying for what's he's done.

[Nate River]

@Nate, a resounding yes to the whole post. But most especially this gem:
 
It's a bit like a magician setting up an elaborate trick that you can't wait to see how he pulls off, only to have the magician point to the back of the room and yell "Is that a baby wolf cub?" When everyone turns back, the trick is pulled off, but the "magic" is gone.
 
Kishimoto constructs some really interesting situations for his characters, but he doesn't follow through in letting them be tested and come out as heroic in truly horrible scenarios. Kishimoto patches together redemptions (Nagato, Itachi) or simply doesn't allow the character to do something too horrific (Naruto) or too unredeemable (Sasuke). 
 
Another great quote recently was from KnS a few days ago:
 
Perfectly put. Naruto is truly willing to give up everything for Sasuke who doesn't want Naruto's help nor would appreciate Naruto's loss of his own goals in giving it. You're right - Naruto does all the work.
 
One last thing - there has been a lot of talk about Obito's redemption and why he should be given another chance, but the very biggest thing that flies in the face of redemption is the fact that he has asked for none. He does not want to be redeemed, he does not care about the people he has killed, from those closest to him to those way on down the line. He has no sense of loss or regret or...anything. All emotional stability, his drive for accomplishing his one moon's eye plan and his subsequent motive for killing anyone who stands in the way of that plan is his selfish desire for Rin. 
 
Not once has he ever expressed an inkling of remorse for what he's done, for personally being the reason people of all nations lost their own "Rins." For me, I can't even begin to think of his redemption until he shows some acknowledgement of what he's done, and accepts whatever fate has in store for him. 
 
I don't know which potential ending is going to tick me off more: that the Obito makes some small sacrifice, something that could never hope to equal the amount of damage he has caused in the shinobi world, and yet still get a "happy ending" with Rin waiting for him across several fan-pandering manga panels. Or the very real possibility that Obito hits a reset button like Pain did, enacting a large sacrifice and brings back the dead, the strong, etc. etc. 
 
For me, there is not a satisfactory storyline to Obito's arc that doesn't end with Obito paying for what's he's done.

I'd add one more to this: his murder spree is not what caused his change of heart. It's the idea that Rin would disapprove of what he's done. It's still all about him and his thing for Rin. As you say, he doesn't once offer anything that suggests he truly cares about the harm he done to others or the fact that he willing to kill countless others for the chance to take away the lives of the survivors. He cares only because he thinks Rin cares.

Both scenarios for Obito's death also create after-the-fact justifications for Naruto's choice. It's bad enough Naruto doesn't have to defend it, but it's worse that the author justifies it with after the fact behavior rather than letting it rest on it's own merits.

[Shadow1275]

 

It's also a cultural thing. In Japan, committing seppuku/suicide for your crimes is considered honorable, unlike in the west. So, from Obito's POV, it's perfectly justified.

 

Also, Kishimoto can write the story a hell lot better. He just chooses not to. Just look at his seinen oneshot a while back. I think it has something to do with Jump insisting on keeping the story this way, despite how much potential the manga could've had if it did enter seinen territory, like Bleach. I remember reading Bakuman and how one of the chapters had the editors discussing on the rising age demographic. Instead, they choose and even insist on churning out mangas geared towards the 13-16yrs old demographic despite the polls clearly showing that Jump's demographic is changing to a 17+ audience. Which, for some reason why, I don't know. 

 

And this is very much a fact that is happening with Jump.

It's the same with pokemon too. While they have a large amount of younger kids who follow the games, the majority of their fans consist of older kids ranging from 13+. A lot of college students still buy the new games and the fanbase is slowly getting older. I really hope the editors aren't boxing Kishi in a corner, and if they are he should take the Naruto license and write/draw for another company. Naruto has too many mature themes, ideas, and characters to end like a kids show.

[TouKen4Life3g]

Well, the chapter is coming near and I am a bit nervous. I just got to stay negative to negate. It's just something could lead either good or bad. I really don't know at this point.

[Strangelove]

Just to add.

The hidden Rain village doesnt have a sea.

 

Symbol of the hidden rain village = | | | |.

 

It can have a lake but not a sea.

 

 

Seriously? I thought that was a sewage lake.

 

 

Oh great, not only did Jiraiya lived without fulfilling his life's accomplishments, killed by his own prodigy, but now his body lies deep at the bottom of human toxic waste.

Edited by Strangelove, 04 December 2013 - 03:32 AM.