57 replies to this topic

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

I was wondering what tsundere really mean, i want to know what you guys think about tsunderes in general what's their intepretation and if tsunderes have differences between one and other.

[TheClover]

Tsundere is a term used to describe a character development process where a person is originally cold and perhaps even threatening towards someone and eventually showing their softer side over time.

ツンツン ("tsun tsun") --> to turn away in disgust; aloof; irritable
デレデレ ("dere dere") --> "lovey dovey"

________________________________________________________

There are in fact two main "types" of tsundere: modern and classic.

What's the difference between the two?

Modern tsundere --> This is a "split personality" kind of thing. A modern tsundere has two personalities (hostile and lovestruck), and switches between them frequently.

Classic tsundere --> The change between "tsun tsun" and "dere dere" is more gradual and permanent.

I prefer the classic tsundere simply because the development seems much more realistic to me. To me the modern tsundere is just really repetitive. Their switch in attitude is often unnecessary and gets them nowhere.

If it seems like I'm being too critical, tsundere as a whole is my favorite character development process. Even if it's really modern and cheesy, I'll probably put up with it. That's how much of a sucker I am.

Also, I don't think this topic should really be in this section.

Edited by DemonicxWings, 01 November 2012 - 01:08 AM.

[TerrorKing]

The way I see it there are two different types of tsunderes:

1. A character who starts of as being cold and dismissive towards another character, but as time goes by their attitude towards said character becomes more and more positive.
2. A character who has an attraction towards another character, but hides it either by acting cold and dismissive or by going out of their way to bully and/or put said character down.

For example, Sakura is a good example of type 1. At first she had no faith in Naruto at all and she merely viewed him as a talentless idiot who only wanted tease her and ger in her way. However as Naruto proved his worth as a ninja as well as how well he understood her and how far he was willing to go for her sake, her opinon of him changed for the better.

As for type 2, I would say that Helga from Hey Arnold is a good example. She always puts Arnold down but she is secretly heads over heels in love with him.

I like tsunderes. I find type 1 to be funny and if done right, it can make for some truly gripping character development and type 2 I just find cute and funny. However I will say that I do prefer type 1 to type 2.

Edited by TerrorKing, 01 November 2012 - 01:16 AM.

[Phantom_999]

OOOHH!!! SO THIS conversation started!!! Well I would love to answer. to work on the point of DemoncXWings and TerrorKing, a tsundere is a character that shows a very harsh and cold attitude and sometimes has violent tendencies (At least for female tsunderes as far as I know, but if there are male examples, likely it is towards other males), which can border along the line of hostility, but has a genuine sweet and considerate side as well that gradually shows over time, or comes and goes depending on the situation.

Fun fact: there are two main types of tsunderes Type A and Type B

Type A: shows the their cold and harsh personality most of the time and sometimes shuns company or denies kindness/doing kind acts despite obvious evidence that they intended it, due to feeling the need to put up a tough front, and among other reasons but the softer, gentle side is there too. Just doesn't show up as much.

Type B: shows the loving and kind side mostly but when genuinely angered, embarrassed, or annoyed, they can show QUITE the temper. Usually the the harsh violent side comes out due involves romantic tension with their love interest or that the former is embarrassed by the latter in some way.

My two cents.

BY THE WAY, Sakura is most likely type B at this point. just a feeling.

Edited by Phantom_999, 15 November 2012 - 12:39 AM.

[merryGOflava]

i agree with TerrorKing :3

those are the ones i consider tsunderes...


to me any girl that acts cold then turns nice later is a tsundere XD or is violent then nice :3


i dont like that ones that act violent or "cute mean" when they are flustered or trying to hide the fact they like a guy.....those get annoying.....XD to me!


i like the ones that hate the main dudes guts but become good friends with them then like them later :3

.....kinda like akane and ranma... or even artemis and wally (from young justice) <---does that count??

though akane only hit ranma when he was being a jerk XD but they got along well actually. (same with artemis and wally)

[Canadian_DJ]

Tsundere is a term used to describe a character development process where a person is originally cold and perhaps even threatening towards someone and eventually showing their softer side over time.

ツンツン ("tsun tsun") --> to turn away in disgust; aloof; irritable
デレデレ ("dere dere") --> "lovey dovey"

________________________________________________________

There are in fact two main "types" of tsundere: modern and classic.

What's the difference between the two?

Modern tsundere --> This is a "split personality" kind of thing. A modern tsundere has two personalities (hostile and lovestruck), and switches between them frequently.

Classic tsundere --> The change between "tsun tsun" and "dere dere" is more gradual and permanent.

I prefer the classic tsundere simply because the development seems much more realistic to me. To me the modern tsundere is just really repetitive. Their switch in attitude is often unnecessary and gets them nowhere.

If it seems like I'm being too critical, tsundere as a whole is my favorite character development process. Even if it's really modern and cheesy, I'll probably put up with it. That's how much of a sucker I am.

Also, I don't think this topic should really be in this section.

Hmm well DemonicxWings pretty much took the words outta my mouth so yeah those are pretty much the basics of tsunderes...........one more example: Sakura towards Naruto :3

[Dragunov]

Reminds that a friend of mine had a love/hate with the idea of tsundere. hmmm. weird stuff.

[Jenskott]

Tsundere is a character can be both harsh and cold or nice and warm.

This attitude can be due to several reasons: they are ashamed of the softer side of his/her nature and consider it a weakness to be hidden; they are genuinely and routinely nice, but a character can set their harsher side off with his/her attitude (or because he/she is an idiot or a jerk)...

Or it can be due to reasons have nothing to do with another character: Tetsuya Tsurugi from Great Mazinger was genuinely a good person, but he was not nice at the least. That was because he was an orphan with a huge inferiority complex and huge self-confidence issues who used his pride and hotheadness to cover his issues. Jun hono from the same series was a tsundere, but her mood shifts were due to inner tensions had little to do with Tetsuya: she was an orphan, her adoptive father treated her mostly like a soldier, she had to put up every day with idiots scorned her for being woman, half-black or half-foreigner... and she was in love with her adoptive brother in spite of he could be a huge, mean jerk. However she knew why he was like that, and she knew he was a good person deep down, so she tried to be patient... in spite of his best efforts to piss her off.

Akane Tendo from Ranma 1/2 was real nice but she had anger management troubles, and she had a very dim view of men due to the hormonally-driven idiots of her institute thought beating her would win them the right to dating with her. So when she met Ranma, a prideful and somewhat rude boy could easily beat her and was constantly mocking her and insulting her... he set her off. Her older sister Kasumi told Akane could be very sweet... but also very mean.

Fa Yuiry from Gundam Zeta was real nice with most people... but Camille Vidan had the knack of driving her mad. Moreover, on one episode of Gundam ZZ she was being pretty stern with Juudau and his friends (I honestly don't blame her), and one of them asked what was her trouble. Someone pointed out her trouble was she was away from Camille.

Minami Asakura from Touch was pretty hard on Tetsuya. But that was because he was real talented but he pretended being a slacker to not overshadow his brother Kazuya (who was very talented, too, but he had a very fragile self-steem). And Minami realized and it drove her nuts everyone picked on him and thought he was an useless fool.

Asuka from Evangelion she was a child had been horribly hurt and traumathized when she was a little girl, so she used a mask of meanness and arrogance to push everybody away because she was frightened of them. To her, lowering her emotional barriers and showing her softer and nicer side was a display of weakness and an invitation to everybody to hurt her again. Though she could be nice with people who had earned her trust by showing they genuinely cared (seeing Kaji or Misato and her in the hot springs). The creator of the series and of the character told she was hard on the main character because she really liked him, but when she flirted with him, Shinji ran away from her because he could not believe she was interested in him (partially and precisely because she pushed everybody away), so she thought he was not interested in her and it got her angrier.

Kyoko from Maison Ikkoku is a realistic take on the stereotype. Her mood shifts are due to most people she meets being... hard to deal with. She is a widow, her mother is obsessed with she must get married again, her father does not want another man comes near from her little child (she is in her twenties), she is the manager of a boarding house inhabited by loons and jerks, and she likes someone younger than her who is an utter, weak-willed pushover. She is a nice, patient person, but almost everyone seem determined to piss her off. However she rarely resorts to violent acts to vent her frustrations.

There's also to consider most of the tsundere characters are teenagers. Therefore, it is downright normal and expectable they display some sort of emotional inmaturity and have a hard time controlling their emotions.

Usually the relationship of the tsundere character with his/her love interest develops the next way: the tsundere learn to not be ashamed of his/her feelings and control his/her temper, the love interest stop being a clueless idiot or a rude jerkass. Both of them mature and grow up, and their relationship becomes calmer, happier, more stable and less violent. Happy romance and babies follow.

Although this particular trope is usually associated with female characters, there also are male tsunderes. Tetsuya Tsurugi from Great Mazinger is a good example.

The first main characters were full-fledged tsunderes were Sayaka Yumi from Mazinger-Z (a shonen manga) and Lady Oscar of Rose of Versailles (a shojo manga) in 1972, although you can find some traits of the trope in older characters such like the main character from Honey Honey (a sixties manga and anime series).

And the violence? Tsundere characters are not always violent or easily-angerable, and when they are, it is for comedic reasons (right like Homer Simpson throttling his son, or Bugs Bunny goading Elmer Fudds to shoot Duffy Duck).

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

About tsunderes i think there's no logic, some say that it's to hide her weakness but taking sakura as an example she acted soft towards sasuke at the point of submission and accept everything he says like when he called naruto annoying she says it too and moreover, in part 2 she still act with violent attitude sometimes like that hug i dont know why she hit him in the middle of everyone it was like WTF, there's no reason for her to hit him, sometimes the tsundere is too forced.
i think sakura needs to be more soft with naruto.

Edited by dovahkiin, 15 November 2012 - 12:16 PM.

[Jenskott]

About tsunderes i think there's no logic,

Of course there's a logic.

some say that it's to hide her weakness

IN SOME INSTANCES it is to hide her weakness. NOT all instances. Nobody has said that.

but taking sakura as an example she acted soft towards sasuke at the point of submission and accept everything he says like when he called naruto annoying she says it too

She and Sasuke called Naruto annoying because he WAS being annoying.

Sakura is one of the instances where she is or can be mostly nice, but someone is particularly skillful in setting her off.

When he was twelve, Naruto was an irritating prankster loved playing jokes in everyone (of course he had a reason to do that, but almost nobody knew it or realized it, and that is not the issue here). Sakura thought he was trying to mock her with his dumb jokes and stupid pranks, right like the girls used to bully her when she was a child, so she thought she was defending herself of a bully.

and moreover, in part 2 she still act with violent attitude

In fiction, violence is often used like source of comedy. I already explained that.

Have you watched The Simpsons? Looney Toons? Tom & Jerry? Any cartoons where someone is hit and it is used to generate laughs?

If you find it funny, laugh it off; if you don't think it's funny at all, ignore it. We -the audience- are not meant to take it seriously, like we would do in the real world.

And she has barely hit him in Part II. Kaori Makimura from City Hunter hit Ryo more times in one single story arc than Sakura has hit Naruto in the whole manga.

As tsunderes go, Sakura is one of the less violent.

sometimes like that hug i dont know why she hit him in the middle of everyone it was like WTF, there's no reason for her to hit him,

Of course there was a reason.

She hit him because he had almost killed himself. He had got her incredibly frightened.

Back when I was a child and I made something INCREDIBLY dumb, my parents got very angry at me. Why? Because they loved me and I had nearly given them a heart attack.

sometimes the tsundere is too forced.

It is a very old storytelling trope. Like all tropes, it has been used to death, overused, parodied, deconstructed, reconstructed...

Tropes are not bad on and of themselves. They can be used in right and wrong ways. It depends on the skill of the writer.

Kishimoto's use of the trope is very restrained and very fair compared with other manga writers such like Rumiko Takahashi.

i think sakura needs to be more soft with naruto.

She has been getting softer since early on Part I. She warned him Kakashi was behind him during the bell test, she agreed to share her food with him (even if Sasuke's example encouraged her to do it. For all she knew, that could mean she would fail the test. And yet she risked for Naruto), she pushed him out of the way of a giant shuriken when they were scorting Tazuna (and the shuriken nearly sliced her off), she taught him how tree-climbing.

It's subtle, but it has been evolving the whole time.

[Deej]

If we just look at Naruto:

Sakura - In my opinion she was a mixture of both Type A and Type B in Part 1. She was generally a nice girl who was deredere with Sasuke and tsuntsun with Naruto. In Shippuden she is more Type B as her relationship with Naruto has developed.

Ino - Was clearly Type B in Part 1 with Sauske. She was alright until Sasuke was mentioned. She then turned into a crazy fangirl and would even fight with her best friend over him. A guy who barely even knew she existed. *sigh* Oh Kishi. But in Shippuden she lost the love interest and her development was with her team. She now seems to have outgrown her tsundere stage.

Temari - Classic Type A with Shikamaru getting her deredere moments. She is scary to anyone she meets and always tried to put up a tough exterior to hide her more vulnerable and gentle side. She'll laugh if you accuse her of being on a date with Shika, but then later probably secretly wish she was on one. She is clearly fits the tough girl who will show her sweet side to the one she loves that Shikaku described to Shikamaru when trying to teach him about women and love.

Tsunade - Type A with Jiraiya.

Karin - Textbook Type B with Sasuke. Type A with everyone else. Especially Suigetsu which probably explains why fans like to ship them.

Karui - Type A with Naruto over the Sasuke incident. Although we'll probably never know if she has developed an attraction to Naruto or she just feels remorse.

Mebuki and Yoshino - Both seem Type A.

There are probably more. But these are the ones that popped into my head.

Edited by Deej, 15 November 2012 - 03:42 PM.

[redragon88]

I think everyone has pretty much covered the various definitions of a tsundere. This makes me think how funny it is that both Naruto and Sasuke have a tsundere as a potential love interest.

For Naruto there's Sakura. She's the type that went from harsh (tsun) to sweet (dere) as the story progressed. Of course even if she's now more dere than tsun she still keeps her temper which she unleashes on Naruto if he ever makes her worry about his well being (the punch and hug after the Pain fight being a good example). At this point I'm sure that if anyone ever dared to badmouth Naruto she would punch them on the spot.

For Sasuke there's Karin. Her tsundere tendencies are what separates her from Sakura when it comes to her affection for Sasuke. Even if she tries to show her dere side when she's alone with him, whenever she's in public she'll always put on her tsun side since she doesn't want to be seen as a soft girl. She's not afraid to call out Sasuke for being reckless (like when she called him a weakling after his fight with Deidara) or when she disagrees with him.

[Jenskott]

For Naruto there's Sakura. She's the type that went from harsh (tsun) to sweet (dere) as the story progressed. Of course even if she's now more dere than tsun she still keeps her temper which she unleashes on Naruto if he ever makes her worry about his well being (the punch and hug after the Pain fight being a good example). At this point I'm sure that if anyone ever dared to badmouth Naruto she would punch them on the spot.

Back in Part I she already was encouraging Naruto to stomp on Kiba. And in Part II she got pretty mad when Kabuto and Sasuke badmouthed him (the former all the way back on the second arc).

So, yes.

[Gravenimage]

Of course there's a logic.



IN SOME INSTANCES it is to hide her weakness. NOT all instances. Nobody has said that.



She and Sasuke called Naruto annoying because he WAS being annoying.

Sakura is one of the instances where she is or can be mostly nice, but someone is particularly skillful in setting her off.

When he was twelve, Naruto was an irritating prankster loved playing jokes in everyone (of course he had a reason to do that, but almost nobody knew it or realized it, and that is not the issue here). Sakura thought he was trying to mock her with his dumb jokes and stupid pranks, right like the girls used to bully her when she was a child, so she thought she was defending herself of a bully.



In fiction, violence is often used like source of comedy. I already explained that.

Have you watched The Simpsons? Looney Toons? Tom & Jerry? Any cartoons where someone is hit and it is used to generate laughs?

If you find it funny, laugh it off; if you don't think it's funny at all, ignore it. We -the audience- are not meant to take it seriously, like we would do in the real world.

And she has barely hit him in Part II. Kaori Makimura from City Hunter hit Ryo more times in one single story arc than Sakura has hit Naruto in the whole manga.

As tsunderes go, Sakura is one of the less violent.



Of course there was a reason.

She hit him because he had almost killed himself. He had got her incredibly frightened.

Back when I was a child and I made something INCREDIBLY dumb, my parents got very angry at me. Why? Because they loved me and I had nearly given them a heart attack.



It is a very old storytelling trope. Like all tropes, it has been used to death, overused, parodied, deconstructed, reconstructed...

Tropes are not bad on and of themselves. They can be used in right and wrong ways. It depends on the skill of the writer.

Kishimoto's use of the trope is very restrained and very fair compared with other manga writers such like Rumiko Takahashi.



She has been getting softer since early on Part I. She warned him Kakashi was behind him during the bell test, she agreed to share her food with him (even if Sasuke's example encouraged her to do it. For all she knew, that could mean she would fail the test. And yet she risked for Naruto), she pushed him out of the way of a giant shuriken when they were scorting Tazuna (and the shuriken nearly sliced her off), she taught him how tree-climbing.

It's subtle, but it has been evolving the whole time.

EPIC post!

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

She and Sasuke called Naruto annoying because he WAS being annoying.

She was annoying too, her annoyance in that scene is because she was doing the same thing with naruto and still she was hipocrit enough to call naruto annoying just to impress sasuke.

In fiction, violence is often used like source of comedy. I already explained that.

Have you watched The Simpsons? Looney Toons? Tom & Jerry? Any cartoons where someone is hit and it is used to generate laughs?

If you find it funny, laugh it off; if you don't think it's funny at all, ignore it. We -the audience- are not meant to take it seriously, like we would do in the real world.

I was talink specifically about the chapter when naruto comes back and she hugs him and say thank you, that part when she hit him wasnt comic i found out of sense it was forced, the hug was fine but before it wasnt cool you can simply like someome who hit and you and later show some caring it's not nice and not even comic.
in the parts she shows caring she didnt hit him before of a hug or something similar.

As tsunderes go, Sakura is one of the less violent.



Of course there was a reason.

She hit him because he had almost killed himself. He had got her incredibly frightened.

Why she would be frightened katsui was there saying that naruto was fine all the time.
and she didnt seem frightened at all.
She was a little worried but different than hinata she trusted naruto and knew that he would come back fine.

Edited by dovahkiin, 16 November 2012 - 12:28 AM.

[Canadian_DJ]

Of course there's a logic.



IN SOME INSTANCES it is to hide her weakness. NOT all instances. Nobody has said that.



She and Sasuke called Naruto annoying because he WAS being annoying.

Sakura is one of the instances where she is or can be mostly nice, but someone is particularly skillful in setting her off.

When he was twelve, Naruto was an irritating prankster loved playing jokes in everyone (of course he had a reason to do that, but almost nobody knew it or realized it, and that is not the issue here). Sakura thought he was trying to mock her with his dumb jokes and stupid pranks, right like the girls used to bully her when she was a child, so she thought she was defending herself of a bully.



In fiction, violence is often used like source of comedy. I already explained that.

Have you watched The Simpsons? Looney Toons? Tom & Jerry? Any cartoons where someone is hit and it is used to generate laughs?

If you find it funny, laugh it off; if you don't think it's funny at all, ignore it. We -the audience- are not meant to take it seriously, like we would do in the real world.

And she has barely hit him in Part II. Kaori Makimura from City Hunter hit Ryo more times in one single story arc than Sakura has hit Naruto in the whole manga.

As tsunderes go, Sakura is one of the less violent.



Of course there was a reason.

She hit him because he had almost killed himself. He had got her incredibly frightened.

Back when I was a child and I made something INCREDIBLY dumb, my parents got very angry at me. Why? Because they loved me and I had nearly given them a heart attack.



It is a very old storytelling trope. Like all tropes, it has been used to death, overused, parodied, deconstructed, reconstructed...

Tropes are not bad on and of themselves. They can be used in right and wrong ways. It depends on the skill of the writer.

Kishimoto's use of the trope is very restrained and very fair compared with other manga writers such like Rumiko Takahashi.



She has been getting softer since early on Part I. She warned him Kakashi was behind him during the bell test, she agreed to share her food with him (even if Sasuke's example encouraged her to do it. For all she knew, that could mean she would fail the test. And yet she risked for Naruto), she pushed him out of the way of a giant shuriken when they were scorting Tazuna (and the shuriken nearly sliced her off), she taught him how tree-climbing.

It's subtle, but it has been evolving the whole time.

Awsome come back!

[Jenskott]

She was annoying too,

So you admit Naruto was being annoying. Therefore, she was right on telling he was. I don't see what the trouble is.

her annoyance in that scene is because she was doing the same thing with naruto and still she was hipocrit enough to call naruto annoying just to impress sasuke.

You will have to cite the chapter -and page, if possible-, because honestly I have no idea of what are you talking about. I can think of several times where she and Sasuke told Naruto was annoying, but... when I try to think of one scene where she called Naruto annoying to impress Sasuke I am coming with a blank.

Hmm... Are you possibly refering to the bench scene? I don't remember she was dissing Naruto specifically to impress Sasuke. I remember she was trying to humor Sasuke to try to woo him, though.

If it was that scene, Sasuke told her she was wrong, too. She reflected over it, realized he was right, and she decided to try and change. Which she did. Again, I don't see what the trouble is.

And I don't think she was being hypocrite. She was criticizing Naruto on grounds of he playing dumb and cruel pranks, bothering everyone and getting away with it, AND picking on Sasuke. She did neither of those things. She would be a hypocrite IF she dissed him for something she also did.

I would call her blind to her own flaws. Often people gets an easier time seeing someone else's flaws than acknowledging their own. That is not being a hypocrite unless we are talking about specific things. Being annoying is too big of a blanket statement to work.

Let me illustrate my point: Laziness and selfishness are annoying traits. If a lazy persons calls another person out for being selfish, that person is not being hypocrite. The lazy person would be being hypocrital if she badmouthed another person for being lazy.

Moreover, Sasuke told her she was acting bad. She thought about it and realized he was right. A hypocrite would refuse facing his/her own flaws or would not care.

And... we are missing the point of the argument.

Like we have explained to you, a tsundere can be kind to some people and rude to others (something EVERYONE in real life do. So it is not illogical)... or she can be a nice person deep down but she is initially rude with someone. However she gradually warms up to that person.

That is called character development.

Sakura was a twelve-years old girl. Hence, she was inmature and bratty. Teenagers tend to be. They also tend to grow out of it as they mature. That's exactly what Sakura did.

Sakura was hostile at Naruto at the beginning of the series (that scene happened in chapter three... six-hundred chapters ago) because she did not knew his real self and she thought he was an annoying prankster and a bully. However when she spent more time with him, she began to see he was a good person, her attitude started changing.

I don't see how that is illogical or forced. I find it realistic.

I was talink specifically about the chapter when naruto comes back and she hugs him and say thank you

You told this:

in part 2 she still act with violent attitude sometimes like that hug

You told IN PART II. In no moment you told you were talking specifically about that single scene. You add it like an example.

that part when she hit him wasnt comic

Yes, it was comical.

You can not find it funny, but it was meant to be comical.

i found out of sense it was forced, the hug was fine but before it wasnt cool you can simply like someome who hit and you and later show some caring it's not nice and not even comic.

No to be rude, but please, trying improving your spelling, grammar, punctuation and sentence structure. I'm having a very hard time trying understanding what you are tellilng (and I have the feeling of you are repeating the same sentence with slight variations). I know it is not easy, English is not my first language so I am always worried about my posts being understandable, but it is necessary.

For the unteempth time, it was COMICAL. You can think it is not funny and out of place at your heart's content (I personally was laughing. And I don't find it out of place. I found her reaction was very understandable), but it WAS intended to be comical.

I repeat: we are meant to laugh about it or ignore it. It is NOT meant to be regarded like real domestic abuse.

in the parts she shows caring she didnt hit him before of a hug or something similar.

Gee, because context was different. In that scene she was both angry at him -for having risked his life and got himself almost killed- and glad for him -since he had returned alive-. She was not angry at him when she wanted feeding him.

Why she would be frightened katsui was there saying that naruto was fine all the time.

I'm sorry telling it... but NOW you are really grasping at straws. You are trying too hard justifying a scene was not a big deal.

Are you telling she was not frightened when she felt the Kyuubi's chakra burning the air? Or when she was told the seal was broken and Naruto was in eight-tails mode? Seriously?

And if you read chapter 438 and next ones, you'll see Naruto going Kyuubi caught her by surprise, and she did not know what Hinata had interfered in the fight. So Katsui was not informing her the whole time.

and she didnt seem frightened at all.

Read the episodes again. She was. Geez, I would be, too.

She was a little worried but different than hinata she trusted naruto and knew that he would come back fine.

No. She could not know that. She could try and trust on him. But she could not KNOW he would return alive. There are never guarantees for somebody on the battlefield. And like ninja and medic, she knows that perfectly.

Naruto getting kicked? Sure, she would not get worried or frightened about that. Naruto facing an opponent seemed beyong his league, and the fox seal breaking? Of course she would get scared.

Are you telling me the very real possibility of Naruto dying would not frighten her?

Do you also think she was not frightened when Naruto went four-tails during his fight against Orochimaru?

She tried to trust on him and obey when he said "nobody butts in!", but that did not mean she was not frightened.

You are taking seriously that hitting scene. WAY seriously. You are actually ignoring circumstances and context explaining why she hit him and why she was intended to be fun and not serious. Not only that. You are determined to ignore it, refusing any explanation offered -including canonical explanations!-. I don't get why.

It was meant to be comical and not serious, and she hit him because he had risked himself too much and he had nearly got himself killed. That is what it is, not my personal interpretation.

And again we are going very off topic. This topic is about tsunderes in general, not about what Sakura did several hundred of chapters ago.

Tsundere characters don't bother me. I got used to them quickly when I began watching anime. Of course, back when I watched Ranma or Kimagure Orange Road I did even know that word. Or what those characters fit into a specifical trope. I found them funny. And I really liked some of them.

Personally I preffer that trope to other kind of characters -the yandere, the emotionless girl...-, because that kind of character is not a pushover, but he/she can also be warm and nice.

EPIC post!

Thank you.

[Sakamaki Izayoi]

So you admit Naruto was being annoying. Therefore, she was right on telling he was. I don't see what the trouble is.

the trouble is she was acting anooying too doing the same thing as naruto so she could not call him annoying because it's hipocrisy.
this is the trouble.

You will have to cite the chapter -and page, if possible-, because honestly I have no idea of what are you talking about. I can think of several times where she and Sasuke told Naruto was annoying, but... when I try to think of one scene where she called Naruto annoying to impress Sasuke I am coming with a blank.

Hmm... Are you possibly refering to the bench scene? I don't remember she was dissing Naruto specifically to impress Sasuke. I remember she was trying to humor Sasuke to try to woo him, though.

If it was that scene, Sasuke told her she was wrong, too. She reflected over it, realized he was right, and she decided to try and change. Which she did. Again, I don't see what the trouble is.

And I don't think she was being hypocrite. She was criticizing Naruto on grounds of he playing dumb and cruel pranks, bothering everyone and getting away with it, AND picking on Sasuke. She did neither of those things. She would be a hypocrite IF she dissed him for something she also did.

I would call her blind to her own flaws. Often people gets an easier time seeing someone else's flaws than acknowledging their own. That is not being a hypocrite unless we are talking about specific things. Being annoying is too big of a blanket statement to work.

Let me illustrate my point: Laziness and selfishness are annoying traits. If a lazy persons calls another person out for being selfish, that person is not being hypocrite. The lazy person would be being hypocrital if she badmouthed another person for being lazy.

Moreover, Sasuke told her she was acting bad. She thought about it and realized he was right. A hypocrite would refuse facing his/her own flaws or would not care.

And... we are missing the point of the argument.

Like we have explained to you, a tsundere can be kind to some people and rude to others (something EVERYONE in real life do. So it is not illogical)... or she can be a nice person deep down but she is initially rude with someone. However she gradually warms up to that person.

That is called character development.

Sakura was a twelve-years old girl. Hence, she was inmature and bratty. Teenagers tend to be. They also tend to grow out of it as they mature. That's exactly what Sakura did.

Sakura was hostile at Naruto at the beginning of the series (that scene happened in chapter three... six-hundred chapters ago) because she did not knew his real self and she thought he was an annoying prankster and a bully. However when she spent more time with him, she began to see he was a good person, her attitude started changing.

I don't see how that is illogical or forced. I find it realistic.

i was talking about chuunin examn the bench scene is other context.

You told this:



You told IN PART II. In no moment you told you were talking specifically about that single scene. You add it like an example.



Yes, it was comical.

You can not find it funny, but it was meant to be comical.

-> it wasnt comical it could meant to be comical but i wanst comic.

No to be rude, but please, trying improving your spelling, grammar, punctuation and sentence structure. I'm having a very hard time trying understanding what you are tellilng (and I have the feeling of you are repeating the same sentence with slight variations). I know it is not easy, English is not my first language so I am always worried about my posts being understandable, but it is necessary.

For the unteempth time, it was COMICAL. You can think it is not funny and out of place at your heart's content (I personally was laughing. And I don't find it out of place. I found her reaction was very understandable), but it WAS intended to be comical.

I repeat: we are meant to laugh about it or ignore it. It is NOT meant to be regarded like real domestic abuse.



Gee, because context was different. In that scene she was both angry at him -for having risked his life and got himself almost killed- and glad for him -since he had returned alive-. She was not angry at him when she wanted feeding him.



I'm sorry telling it... but NOW you are really grasping at straws. You are trying too hard justifying a scene was not a big deal.

Are you telling she was not frightened when she felt the Kyuubi's chakra burning the air? Or when she was told the seal was broken and Naruto was in eight-tails mode? Seriously?

And if you read chapter 438 and next ones, you'll see Naruto going Kyuubi caught her by surprise, and she did not know what Hinata had interfered in the fight. So Katsui was not informing her the whole time.



Read the episodes again. She was. Geez, I would be, too.

She had faith on naruto something that hinata does not know what it is, and plus i do not understand what you'r trying to say but i never said she was abusing naruto or angry at him.

No. She could not know that. She could try and trust on him. But she could not KNOW he would return alive. There are never guarantees for somebody on the battlefield. And like ninja and medic, she knows that perfectly.

Naruto getting kicked? Sure, she would not get worried or frightened about that. Naruto facing an opponent seemed beyong his league, and the fox seal breaking? Of course she would get scared.

she was worried if naruto would harm the people of the village at his current state she trusts naruto.
She said naruto is dangerous when he becomes kyuubi.

Are you telling me the very real possibility of Naruto dying would not frighten her?

Do you also think she was not frightened when Naruto went four-tails during his fight against Orochimaru?

She tried to trust on him and obey when he said "nobody butts in!", but that did not mean she was not frightened.

You already said what i told u before "nobody butts in!" she knew that naruto was dangerous at that state but at the point of frightening it's different she had faith on naruto.
but knew that he was dangerous, she was worried but not at the point of frightening.

You are taking seriously that hitting scene. WAY seriously. You are actually ignoring circumstances and context explaining why she hit him and why she was intended to be fun and not serious. Not only that. You are determined to ignore it, refusing any explanation offered -including canonical explanations!-. I don't get why.

It was meant to be comical and not serious, and she hit him because he had risked himself too much and he had nearly got himself killed. That is what it is, not my personal interpretation.

I never said she was abusing naruto, and didnt meant it i just said it was out of place, because it wasnt comical.
All her hitting are comical but that wasnt i did not take it seriously but it wasnt comical out of place, kishimoto fail.

And again we are going very off topic. This topic is about tsunderes in general, not about what Sakura did several hundred of chapters ago.

Tsundere characters don't bother me. I got used to them quickly when I began watching anime. Of course, back when I watched Ranma or Kimagure Orange Road I did even know that word. Or what those characters fit into a specifical trope. I found them funny. And I really liked some of them.

Personally I preffer that trope to other kind of characters -the yandere, the emotionless girl...-, because that kind of character is not a pushover, but he/she can also be warm and nice.

let's talk about tsunderes it's already getting off topic

Thank you.

Edited by dovahkiin, 16 November 2012 - 10:45 AM.

[Gravenimage]

the trouble is she was acting anooying too doing the same thing as naruto so she could not call him annoying because it's hipocrisy.
this is the trouble.


i was talking about chuunin examn the bench scene is other context.




-> it wasnt comical it could meant to be comical but i wanst comic.


She had faith on naruto something that hinata does not know what it is, and plus i do not understand what you'r trying to say but i never said she was abusing naruto or angry at him.


she was worried if naruto would harm the people of the village at his current state she trusts naruto.
She said naruto is dangerous when he becomes kyuubi.


You already said what i told u before "nobody butts in!" she knew that naruto was dangerous at that state but at the point of frightening it's different she had faith on naruto.
but knew that he was dangerous, she was worried but not at the point of frightening.



I never said she was abusing naruto, and didnt meant it i just said it was out of place, because it wasnt comical.
All her hitting are comical but that wasnt i did not take it seriously but it wasnt comical out of place, kishimoto fail.


let's talk about tsunderes it's already getting off topic

Thank you.

How about showing us the exact chapter when Sakura was acting annoying to impress Sasuke because I sure don't remember.

[Jenskott]

Sigh. Look, this is going to be my last post in this issue because it's clear you are not listening to one word what I said, and besides it is pretty hard understand your writing. We would be going in circles at this point.

the trouble is she was acting anooying too doing the same thing as naruto so she could not call him annoying because it's hipocrisy.
this is the trouble.

No. She was not being a hypocrite. You are using a completely ambiguous blanket statement to justify calling her that.

If someone is a thief and criticizes another person for stealing things, that person is a hypocrite.

If someone is a liar and criticizes another person because he/she is lying, then that person is a hypocrite.

But being annoying? That is completely ambiguous. If she was critizicing Naruto for making something she was not doing, then she was not a hypocrite. Rationalizing Naruto was doing something annoying and she could be annoying is not enough to call her a hypocrite.

Moreover... When this argument became about if Sakura was being or not being hypocrital in one scene several years ago? You told you did not understand the logic behind tsunderes being nice to some people and cold to other people and cited an alleged scene where Sakura was being nice to Sasuke and mean to Naruto. I explained the logic of it and you started telling she was a hypocrite, which is debatable and completely irrelevant to the discussion.

I don't get because you did that.

i was talking about chuunin examn the bench scene is other context.

Then I'm sorry, but I have NO bloody idea of what you are talking about.

-> it wasnt comical it could meant to be comical but i wanst comic.

Could?

It "could not" be meant to be comical. It WAS meant to be comical. Author intent is very clear here and it gives not room to suppositions.

And it was not be comical TO YOU. It is all right if you don't find it comical, but that is irrelevant, right like it is irrelevant I thought was was amusing.

Either you laugh about it or you ignore it and move on. That is what the audience is supposed to do. We are not supposed to take it seriously, overthink it or dissect it.

She had faith on naruto

So what? Having faith on Naruto does not mean she was not afraid, worried or angry at him for nearly dying. That does not contradict anything I have said.

something that hinata does not know what it is,

Hinata has nothing to do with this argument. Whatever she did or didn't is irrelevant in this discussion.

, and plus i do not understand what you'r trying to say but i never said she was abusing naruto or angry at him.

I never said you said she was angry at him. I said she was angry at him, and that is because she walloped him.

However your repeated comments about she hitting Naruto, that being "uncool" implied she was abusing him.

she was worried if naruto would harm the people of the village at his current state she trusts naruto.

Are you seriously TELLING she was not worried about Naruto getting hurt or dying? Especially when he had allowed the fox taking over? I'm sorry, but that makes no sense.

According your theory why was she crying when Chiyo told a jinchuuriki dies when the bijuu gets extracted? If she trusted Naruto so much she thought nothing bad could ever happen to him, then she would have no reason to cry.

She trusts Naruto... but she does not think he is invincible, invulnerable or unassailable.

She said naruto is dangerous when he becomes kyuubi.

That does not contradict at all what I am telling.

You already said what i told u before "nobody butts in!" she knew that naruto was dangerous at that state but at the point of frightening it's different she had faith on naruto.

No. NARUTO was the one told nobody interfered. She said she was going to find help. Mainly Yamato, to save Naruto. If she trusted Naruto would solve the trouble on his own and he was not in danger then why would she want going for help and think she needed finding Yamato?

Again, you are not disproving my words at all.

but knew that he was dangerous, she was worried but not at the point of frightening.

Based on what? Not on her expressions, her words or her actions, that is clear.

I don't get why are you so intent on arguing she was not frightened for Naruto in spite of logic and all available evidence stating otherwise.

I never said she was abusing naruto, and didnt meant it

I didn't say you say it. But you repeated over and again she hit him, and it was not comical, and it was not cool... It implies she was abusing him, whether you mean it or not.

i just said it was out of place, because it wasnt comical.

Whethere it was out of place or not or if they was comical or not are entirely different things. So doesn't say the reason it was not comical is because it was allegedly out of place because the later does not imply the former.

Besides, it was not out of place.

Your reasoning is built on a castle of cards. You tell it was not comical because it was out of place (like if one thing implied the another). Then you tell it was out of place because there was no reason for it. When you are explained the reason, you refuse accepting it.

Your reasoning is circular. It was not comical because it was out of place. And it was out of place because it was not comical. I'm sorry, but it makes no sense.

All her hitting are comical but that wasnt

Er... Yes, it was.

You have just told all of her hits are comical. There you go. That scene is included in the lot. What you find it funny or not is irrelevant. A joke doesn't cease being a joke only because you thought it was not funny.

i did not take it seriously

That is because you are arguing this over and again and because you insists on "she hit him" and it was out of place and there was no reason to it, right?

If you did not take it seriously then you would acknowledge it like a comical scene and wave it away.

but it wasnt comical out of place,

You are repeating yourself.

It was not out of place. There was a reason for it. You just refused accepting it because it destroyes your circular theory of it being not comical because it was out of place.

kishimoto fail.

Uh... no. He did not fail (use proper tenses, please) because he did a joke and you found it unfunny. At any rate YOU are the one failed because you refused seeing a scene for what it was, and using the manga to understanding it.

Geez, this manga has plenty plotholes. But this is NOT one of them. It is perfectly explained throughout the plot and the characters.

let's talk about tsunderes it's already getting off topic

Definitely.

How about showing us the exact chapter when Sakura was acting annoying to impress Sasuke because I sure don't remember.

Neither I do. I want to give him credit, and believe I forgot about it.

But unless I see pics I am not buying it, I'm sorry.

On topic. My favorite tsunderes surely are Sayaka from Mazinger-Z, Jun from Great Mazinger, Madoka from Kimagure Orange Road, Kaori from City Hunter, Lina Inverse from Slayers, Akane from Ranma 1/2 and Asuka from Evangelion.