Tiller

So Kishimoto forgot how to draw Jiraiya? lol

Itachi going from a genocidal maniac, and instead turned into a "good guy all along".

Sasuke becoming the main driving force behind the story instead of staying as, and developing into a better villain character.

Sasuke's cancerous relationship with Naruto and Sakura turning both into crying weakleakings during key moments of the story.

The War Arc.

Madara being built up as a genuis powerhouse and a genuine evil person, only to be turned into a man who was tricked by an ancient Goddess.

Orochimaru is really a good guy in the end! ... wait what? Yes that's kittening canon!

Every intersting character who died, and those we didn't know about but only hear about, all come back to life instead of Kishimoto just relying on the cast of character he already had built up.

Sasuke decided to try to assissnate the leaders of all of the villages.... nothing comes of this in the end.

Sasuke becoming a "good guy" again at all is ridiculous. That he was never punished and in the end was reward with Sakura is disgusting.

Women are mostly turned into trophies in the end. Their value, and how "succesful" of human beings they are ends up ammounting to "Did they get the D from the guy they wanted? Or did they have to settle for someone else?" Which basically means in Kishimoto's eyes Ino is a failure as a person.

Except for Hinata who gets her man because when you got kittens like her's, kitten get's done behind the scene thanks to SP. Which in reverse turns Naruto into her reward for all the positive things she did in the story. I mean seriously she didn't forget to say Naruto-Kun once, and I know Pokemon has made repeating one word over and over look easy but trust me it's not.

The realization that evey major conflict in human history since the whole "people can use chakra" thing happened, ended up being about one thing in the end. Bringing back the Rabbit Goddess..... since Black Zetsu was pulling all the strings from the beginning. The ninja system wasn't the problem at all. Humanity has no weaknesses in the level, they only can get tricked into being bad.

The ninja system stays around despite the fact that there is supposedly no need for warriors anymore. Despite this child soilders is so ingrade in their culture that parents expect their kids to die if need be, even though the village system is now set up for constant peace.

The evil that is a part of the human condition is brushed aside as not mattering. Everything from murder, slavery, indebted servitude, genoicde, human experimintation, and a system that doesn't value free will is rewarded in the end. No one is punished for their actions, and Kishimoto even tries to make it look like Madara wasn't really a bad guy in the end.... what what what?!!?!?

The tailed beast and the Sage even existing. Originally it was just the nine tails.... and then the demon that was inside Gaara was said to be "like the nine tails".... later we find out that these "tailed beast" are a part of the ninja system. We then also learn that Naruto's mother also had the nine tails inside her, yet with all this information gathered rereading early part one doesn't make any sense. Why the hell would people think Naruto IS the demon fox when eveyone knows that these beast are simply put into host bodies in order to portect the villages? People may not like them, but the Leaf village canon wise is shown to accept the host since they all loved Naruto's mother and where happy that she was the first lady of the leaf..... then like two weeks later after the fist couple is murdered the leaf turn against the new host..... despite the fact that they should all still be used to it to an extent and all should have a reason to take the 4ths request that Naruto be seen as a hero more honestly. Instead Naruto is thrown aside... why?

For some reason no one bothers to tell Naruto he is basically the son of the most famous couple of the Leaf who died for him. For no apparent reason. Why didn't the Third just say "Ladies and Gentleman the 4th and his wife gave up their lives in order to protect the village. Before they died though they were able to give life to their child, and then had to make a terrible choice. They decided to place the beast inside of their new born in order to protect us. Which means it is the job of this entire village now to make sure their child is raised correctly under the ideals that his parents lived and died for." Instead we got "This is the new hero kid...respect him." and for some reason the rest of the ninja village decided to forget about the world they live in, and just hate Naruto.... why?

Why? BECAUSE THIS STORY WASN'T PLANNED OUT FROM THE START! despite the claims of the pro ending fanbase.

Along this line the quesiton of how Jiraya and Kakashi didn't figure out that Naruto was the son of the 4th makes even less sense. If they knew before hand that he was his son makes it even worse! It means that two succesful career driven men, who cared about his parents, allowed their son's formative years to be lonely and broken. They latered showed they had no problem becoming father figures to Naruto, so why the hell did they wait so long to teach the kid that he could be loved?

Since Itachi was changed from homicidal murder into loyal solider of the leaf, it did two things that still divide up the fanbase. First it made it canon that the Uchiha were willing to kill fellow members of the village so long as their family attained power. Secondly it made it so Itachi's torturing Sasuke for years in order to "Give him strengh to rebuild the clan" was a sign of "love" instead of what it originally was suppose to be, the sign of a homicidal killer who enjoyed toying with his borther's mental state of mind.

Sasuke's "Revenge" theme ended with a popcorn fart instead of a final last stand. Today despite all his actions, he essentially works for the Leaf even if he isn't comfortable enough to be around them. That's right Sasuke Uchiha is now just the strongest warrior of the leaf villages arrisnal, and is "just super cool". Despite all the actions he tooked against the Leaf to begin with.

Sakura never surpasses Tsnuade in any measureable way in the end. Tsnuade is still working at the front of medical technology, and is still trying to improve her skills even though she is technically a retired Hokage and has every right to just sit around all day is she wanted to. Sakura on the other hand is living as single mother, is completely in debt, and destroyed her house because her daughter asked why their father abdnonded them.

Naruto became the very kind of person he originally hated. In the end he has little to do with his family, did nothing to change the system in any meaningful way, doesn't protect the weakest, and in the end is Hokage pretty much because he is the most popular. He also isn't above using underhanded tactics to get what he wants, including trying to sleep with Sakura simply because he thought it would upset Sasuke, and forcing Tsnuade to retire from being Hokage despite the obvious fact that she is still able to work.

I can go on. Like a mosquito on a nudist beach I really have a hard time deciding where to start and end becuase their is just so much out there to work with. I may come back to this later, but this is enough for now.

She could've actually killed Sasuke afterwards? lol

Sasuke should have died for this story to make any sense. Instead he's be rewarded.

Madara did die. He came on to the battle field via Edo Tensei, meaning he had to have died at some point. He came alive again when the author decided to make stuff up that made no sense. However, if Kishimoto's idea of reincarnation is the same as it is commonly understood then Sasuke cannot be his reincarnation as there would have been no spirit to place into Edo Tensei body.

I think that Sasuke is considered Madara's reincarnation only because both Sasuke and Madara are the reincarnation of Indra. Madara truly died sometime after saving Obito, I think it was right after Rin was killed by Kakashi, before being revived via the Edo Tensei during the Fourth War. 

I broke down and decided to look some stuff up. Although I didn't look back at the manga I decided to check out the Naruto wiki so take this info for what it is worth.


It seems that Madara did die at the Valley of the End. But before the battle he set up a seal that would bring him back to life by sacrificing the vision in his right eye. (I don't how the kitten that works but ok fine. He died but didn't die cause of magic.). He then took a mouthful (? I guess he bite him?!?!) of Hashirama's flesh that he used to heal his wounds. This later caused the activation of the Rinnegan, which allowed him to summon the Demonic Statue which he used to create the White Zetsu Army. Oh and it grew his missing eye back... so... you know he didn't lose anything really.


Madara then came up with the Moon idea, and choose Nagato to be the person who would carry it out, so he transplanted the Rinnegan into Nagato without Nagato knowing about it. He did this so Nagato would one day bring him back to life.... (?) I guess. In order for Nagato to do this though he needed an agent to do this because he was dying of old age. He found Obito.


He then manipulated things so Rin would have the Three Tail's sealed into her, and also so that Kakashi would kill her well Obitio witnessed it. Therefor making sure Obitio would hate the world and go along with his plan. Madara then created Black Zetsu as a manifestation of his will.... (I guess this was retconned later?) And then he chose to die by disconnecting himself from the Demon Statue, and gave Obito his name.


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That's the stupidest kitten I've forced myself to read in awhile. I don't remember half of that, but reading it out like that I can see why. That setup is kitten insane for a story's background..... So just wait.... Even this has been retconned because in the end it was Kaguya who created Black Zetsu who put everything in motion including most of the wars that happened between the nations so that Kaguya would come back to life......


Which means every war was just an excuse to bring back Kaguya... not one was about human weakness but instead a god's manipulation.... and even Madara was manipulated into evil... who then manipulated Obitio and Sasuke and basically everyone else.... and....

You said it man. But does Sakura get an apology for how Naruto apparently faked his love for her in order to one up Sasuke? After all, according to The Last, that is a canon fact. I'm guessing no, because this is Sakura kittening Haruno. If she does anything good, it gets ignored or downplayed. If she does anything bad, it gets focused on and analysed to hell and back. If someone does something nice for her and she doesn't immediately fall to her knees in utmost praise, she's called a heartless kitten. If someone does something bad to her...eh...who cares...

 

Perhaps I'm just damaged from all the Sakura hate I've witnessed over the years, but seriously, it could sometimes get downright psychotic to the point where it was no longer about being critical of Sakura as a character and more about downright bashing. I guess that, once again, it's just the NH fandom I have a problem with because:

 

Sakura having a rivalry with Ino over Sasuke = Bad

Sakura manipulating Naruto's feelings = Bad

Naruto having a rivalry with Sasuke over Sakura = Okay

Naruto manipulating Sakura's feelings = Okay

 

So yeah, double standars. Double standards everywhere! But then again, what else is new? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I hated it until the very end when Kishimoto wrote it out in black and white that everything the anti-Sakura crowd said was basically right. She used Naruto, Naruto used her, in the end Naruto and Sakura's relationship only existed because they both had feelings about Sasuke.

That's canon. EVERYTHING about this story was altered completely because of Sasuke. Why did Naruto have feelings for Sakura? Because she was Sasuke's property. Why did Sakura try to manipulate Naruto? Because she needed to be reunited with the man who controlled her life. What was Sakura's "reward"? Sasuke's kid that she is allowed to raise into the Sasuke cult. She doesn't get a soul mate, Sasuke just leaves. What about Naruto? Well he gets to be king, therefor finally getting one thing over Sasuke, well also staying in touch with his "friend".

Throughout most of this series I defended Naruto, Sakura, NS, the ideals and themes expressed in this book originally (The importance of free will over "destiny", the right of every person no matter how high or low their social standing, the need to fight in order to defend what you value in your heart) and shockingly now even Kishimoto's talent. As that story went on though, and after the Pein Arc I started to care less and less. By the ending I became a proud member of most of the anti character/pairing fanclubs other at narutoforums.com, and make it known that Kishimoto in the end really is just that bad of a creator.

If the Naruto series teaches the creative community anything in the end, I think what it shows is just how important a good editor can be. A good editor can make even a terrible creator's work look good with a steady hand.

Since NH has become canon, those of us who have actually read the story Kishimoto was telling have had to put up with a lot of bs. One of the biggest slap in our face is the "fact" now going around the Naruto simply does not know what love is until Hinata "wins" him. You see threw his entire life, and therefor the story we all read, Naruto always considered love to be how you feel about a food you like. Let's look at some examples, of when Naruto felt that love was the same feeling a person got when their hunger was filled.

Obviously this is a man who simply is not in touch with his feelings on any real level. Naruto just doesn't understand people, he simply can't comprehend human emotions. He doesn't know what it's like to having longing, to have desires, to want to feel a human connection with human beings. He only understands base things like hunger, lust, and thirst. Naruto didn't know what true love was, and desire for love was like before Hinata won him in The Last. Until that day he just never really wanted love because he never understood it. That's why Hinata exist, don't you know?

Because no one stood my Naruto until Hinata showed up to teach him about love, well Naruto was in his late teens early twenties. Before this time he was confused about love, and never had any real love in his life.

Because only Hinata ever understood Naruto, and only she ever wanted to help him.

Everybody knew it. Since Naruto didn't love anyone else ever, it's obvious the the entire ninja community understood that only Hinata would get an emotional cripple like Naruto. Naruto never showed that he even cared about anyone else. He never had any attraction to any person, any hints to it otherwise was just Naruto wanting to beat his rival.

Nope... Naruto just doesn't understand love.

So how can anyone be against how the story ended up developing? The canon pairings were built from the ground up, and hints were shown everywhere of how every couple would have a loving bond.

What do I think of this canon "fact" in the end with all the evidence that Naruto would never had learned what love was without the soulless eyes of the Princess? As Kishimoto and SP tell us is now canon?

What really pisses me off about the confession now, that instead of it being a stepping stone in the developing relationship between Sakura and Naruto, it's now used as evidence as Sakura's "infidelity".

Because for SS and therefor for canon, it was nothing more then at time where Sakura at best was doubting her feelings towards her God (Sasuke), and at worst was outright lying and trying to manipulate her supposed "friend". In the end it does nothing but make Sakura look like a complete scum bag.

Which is the worst aspect of it all. It brought nothing to the story. At best it made Sakura look like a manipulative kitten, and at worst it made it look like she betrayed her canon reason for existing, and that is as being a worshiper of the Uchiha.

Just listening to how SS remember it makes it so much worse. "Remember when Sakura almost betrayed Sasuke for the Orange Bamboo?" "Oh no! That was just Sakura trying to trick the Orange Bamboo so it didn't get hurt, because no one could match the greatness of Sasuke Uchiha our Lord and Savior!"

Which has caused those on the Anti-Sakura club to have even more of a reason to complain about how her character was developed. The confession went NO WHERE in the canon story. It meant NOTING canon wise. All it did was ruin Sakura further, and continues to push the idea that Naruto's goal ultimately is to make sure Sakura and Sasuke bang at least once. Cause you know only a "terrible woman" would betray a man who tried killing her multiple times, abandoned her and their child, and still refuses to be around them on a daily basis.

The "I hate people who lie to themselves" crap did a lot of damage. It pained me when I first saw it.

Kishimoto could of had her grab Naruto's shirt pull him in and kiss him. If he still said that "I hate people who lie to themselves" kitten line Sakura could of responded "I hate people who are blind to what's in front of them."

Honestly I wish that NS would have been used in order to have both of them become less slavish towards Kishimoto's God. AKA Sasuke.

True but still  he sure forgive them quite easily after he got his Sauce back . But that was the point to begin with , everyone gets a pardon no matter how much they were demonized by their actions right !?

 

Those who left are pardoned (Sauce & Oro) and the others are pretty much dead but still glorified  ( Itachi,Obito , etc ) . You can basically pull a Hitler and in the end you'll be pardoned and viewed as a hero/cool person bc you're either  Naruto's "best friend/lover"    or bc he can relate to you in some ridiculous way . Words like justice ,taking consequences for your actions doesn't exist . Why !? Bc every Villain was a misunderstood sick puppy  who was hurt so he can do whatever he likes who cares about the victims and their families right !? . Just thinking about this is making my brain hurts .   

It's one of the major problems with the story. And it all comes to a head other the fact that Kishimoto tried to deal with "big" issues, but didn't have the talent to do it. Even in stories where we have a villain protagonist, that attempts to show why they have become an evil douchebag, it doesn't end with them being REWARDED for being evil. Kishimoto on the other hand does. Even Madara is shown to look at in pity despite the fact that he put into motion the major events the ruined the lives of millions of people. It was themes that Kishimoto simply was not talented enough to address, which is why he feel back on that "Sasuke is just cool" angel.

Sasuke is "pure" he doesn't see the world in the realm of good and evil......

Well that's just kitten insane. Selfishly being willing to kill millions in order to reach your goals, and later enslave the entire world population doesn't suddenly become ok just because Sasuke's drive was but into action because of his "tragic" backstory. There is nothing pure about it, Sasuke isn't in some "gray" area that people don't understand.  Just because he isn't laughing maniacally when he talks about taking over the world and enslaving mankind for his own desires, he isn't somehow "good". You can't even call him a well intention extremist since that entire arc was just thrown in at the end to make Naruto fight Sasuke without Sasuke purely just being an asshat. 

How this story was changed to attempt to make Sasuke and what he did as "good" is just mind boggling. The only good thing about it is that it shows other creators what not to do.

Well, the way I had been interpreting it was that although Naruto wanted Sasuke to come back himself, what was DRIVING HIM so hard (out to the point of obsession) was the promise he made to Sakura. That at least makes some of his creepy behavior on the subject justifiable, redeemable and romantic. It also fleshes out his character as far as what his nindo actually means to him However, by making it to where the POAL is no big deal at all, Naruto's obsession with saving Sasuke is downright creepy. Getting your assed kick just because someone spoke ill of him, hyperventilating, begging on your hands and knees? That's just downright mental. And if we consider the implications of him only liking Sakura as a means to get to Sasuke (endlessly asking her out on dates, telling Sai he loved her, nearly getting his face caved in and nearly dying against Gaara), that even makes him more insane, more pathetic and less redeemable. Just to the point where you're thinking that NaruSasu is a pretty valid pairing after all.

Yup.... honestly SN is about the only pairing that may have more to complain about then us. Canon wise there is no reason Sasuke and Naruto shouldn't be together. Hell Sasuke seems to have more communication with Naruto then he does his "wife" who he abandoned for  a decade.

Naruto's drive only really makes sense if it's a combination of him wanting to save Sasuke, and him doing it for the woman he loves. As you said, since it's now "canon" that Naruto never liked Sakura really and was only trying to get in her pants to hurt Sasuke's feelings you begin to realize something.... canon wise.. Naruto is kitten insane and a true stalker.....

Which may explain why in Kishimoto's mind Hinata and Naruto being together makes sense. They have so much in common. Naruto altered his life story in order to stalk Sasuke and control his life, Hinata stalked Naruto for much the same reason. He must have seen a person of his own spirit in her.

Of course for those of us who read this story before it became a Bizzaro world none of this makes sense. None of the character drives make sense anymore, and the retcons don't make it any easier to understand. We just have to accept the simplest of facts in the end.... the story is broken, it can not be fixed, and there is nothing we can do about it. All we can do is write stories the return the format to how it was. There is nothing else to do.

I personally think that the Timeskip-Pain Arc was the best part of the story, were actions grew larger and the story could have really been taken somwhere amazing, but instead things just declined steadily. It was a great set up... and was destroyed like nothing even mattered in the end.

There just wasn't enough crap kicking to go around for Sakura. The only one whom you could truly say she beat was Sasori, and that was largely thanks to Chiyo's efforts. You can thank Kishi for choosing to dedicate his manga to Sasuke instead of other characters for that. Well, that and Sakura's general standing with the fandom. Had she been more popular, he might have written her into some more combat scenarios. She was never going to see the kind of interaction that Naruto and Sasuke had, but if she could at least have maybe one fight per arc that showed her in a more competent light it might have helped her approval ratings. 

Sure there is some truth to that. From my perspective that last truly great thing she did with her fist was save a kid from being killed by a giant bug when Pain invaded the leaf. On a side note I think her fight with Sasori and the story at large at the point was the highlight of the entire story. Which not surprising happened when Sasuke had the least interaction directly with the story. Characters motivation although with an undercurrent of "we need to find/save Sasuke" wasn't completely dominated by it yet. Hell Sakura shows genuine fear about the idea of losing Naruto.

Sasuke surviving this story was bad enough, him being rewarded for his actions wrecks any redeeming qualities it could possibly ever have.

that lady talked about how the girls are too obsessed about love, so that too

But that in an of itself doesn't even bother me. There are plenty of good stories that have a romance subplot to them, that haven't ended in complete failure the way this story does. The problem here is that in the end Kishimoto did everything in his power to rewarded a character who became a villain without also punshing said villain. Sasuke is never punished once for his acitons, and the story itself is warped in such a way as to make sure he can not be punished. Everything he does is excused, and the only thing close to a consequence that he suffers is self impossing. And in the end his "exile" is now mostly used as comic relief in order to show that Sakura doesn't get laid enough, and barely spend time with her "husband".

If this story really had a true "love" aspect to it, Sakura would be divorced because Sasuke continues to abandon her. That's never going to happen though because that would make Sasuke look bad. Sakura's job is to worship the hero, who in this story turned out to be the villain Sasuke who was saved from "darkness" because Naruto punches him super hard, and because Naruto also is somehow Sasuke's eternal reincarnated brother.... because you know that whole "free will" theme Kishimoto originally went with he later either forgot about or turned against.

Which in the end leads us to the point of this story. If your born important you are important, it's your fate. Which goes against the entire point of the first half of this story, which is the free will of man, and the diginity of every human being. But no... fate. Hey got to make sure Sasuke doesn't look bad right?

I personally don't have a problem with Sakura beign a healer. After all she didn't just heal people. she did kick the crap out of people too.

The problem with this story has everything to do with Sasuke, and how he affects others.

It's a good setup. I think they are capturing the "what's going on? This can't be real." feeling that people would have if the whole zombie thing started happening. Espically since this world has no "zombie" fiction before it's uprising to look at, so for them it's just a huge wtf moment.

The teen drama aspects I think are going to subside for the realities of the fall of society. I'm hoping we will see more of how the early "Tribes" (for lack of a better word) begin to be developed. I'm intersted to see how it works out.