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Aevrum

Member Since 17 Dec 2016
Offline Last Active Aug 11 2017 07:07 PM

#942449 The Great Naruto Discussion Thread

Posted by Aevrum on 06 July 2017 - 02:20 PM

I wouldn't say that there was not much romance in the Manga. Actually, the small stepping stones over the course of many in-universe-years you mentioned, are in my opinion much more worth than anyone could show the audience in a short time frame like in The Last. It furthermore feels much more genuine and natural.
But then again, it depends a lot on the own personal views on romance.
Personally I love the amount of romance Kishi put in it, because it is sparsely enough to not distract from the main plot lines, but always subtle enough there to keep things going. Honestly, without any pairing bias, the only thing that went totally wrong was Sakura's for love for Sasuke - because we simply don't see it in a way, to make us grasp it.
NS and NH were handled okayish, although it didn't go at the end like I personally would have wanted it.^^ It made at least sense.
Of course not to mention that an NS route during the last third/fourth of the Manga would have been sooo much better in every aspect (+ Sakura focus like you wrote) , but well, you can't have everything, can you? :D


The Last is a nice movie; the romance in Naruto was more important than in other series', so it was clear that it had to be addressed somehow at the end, no matter how (In the last chapters or a extra movie like here), or which pairing happened.

The movie did this job, but it had many poor aspects:

-Too much focus on romance, what made the movie feel extremely awkward.

-NH was built up during the last parts of the manga; the movie ignored too much of what was written in the Manga, and makes Naruto look like an total idiot.
Which in reverse makes his love for Hinata look ridiculous.

-Other inconsistencies.

-And of course for us: How NS was handled.
It's not totally bad, with great. allusions to the fake confession scene; but all in all not satisfying enough. Like the things that were implicated, or that it felt like there were things in the air, that weren't talked about.

-Too much unresolved points.


To sum it up:
I don't think The Last is there to 'justify' NH or something like that, enough of it was already there in the Manga; the movie is pure fan-service.
But it is a bad movie in it's core aspect, the romance and doesn't the much else beside romance, which is extremely disappointing for 'the last' movie.


#941692 How Kishimoto could have made Sakura popular

Posted by Aevrum on 17 June 2017 - 01:53 AM

I guess what I meant to say is that canon Sakura problem is her obsession. If she was start from scratch, then that's an ok trait, even though people would be challenged to maintain their cool. If it's comedy, it's not that bad. If it is serious, better have a great payoff.

Basically, if you have to remove one part out of her, the whole love thing would be one because of how awful it was and how much of a foreground it is. If we were to start from the beginning, then it's fine. I'm used to it being comedy or from an antagonist point of view.


I honestly wouldn't want to miss her initial obsession with/crush on Sasuke, because it's actually pretty important for her character.
It shows us her flaws, her thoughts, her enormous insecurities, her 'innocent'-idealistic inner self and her departedness from the important things and reality (also think back at her story with Ino).
It's a tool to easily and quickly establish core elements of her character and offer a platform for development and maturiation - sure, it could be handled differently, but it would be much more difficult.
Plus it makes her bond (and it's development) with Naruto even more meaningful.


#938846 Naruto: Alternative The Last (Doujinshi)

Posted by Aevrum on 02 May 2017 - 02:05 PM

New update at last and perhaps this may cause a little rift with NS viewers' thoughts.

Ch 3: PG: 8 Scene of Genjutsu Part 3 Naruto's PoV

I think that Tokai already wrote somewhere in the comments, that this Sai is only a product of Naruto's imagination.
He is [as the person that 'challenged' Naruto (and Sakura) the most, in case of his love] a embodiment of Naruto's own insecurities and 'unresolvement' (is that a legit word?^^) over that topic.

It's kind of a genjutsu but at the same time not really, because the things he sees are not really influenced from the outside or another person. It's a dream-like state.
Tokai had to somehow defuse the fact, that Naruto can't be trapped in a genjutsu, after he was already at the genjutsu point^^

I think that Naruto's reaction is actually spot-on in the context of the canon-developments.
We see after the confession scene, how that topic is suddenly a taboo and never really picked up again and properly resolved. Plus Naruto's talk with Minato after the war, how sadly "not everything can go, like [his] mother wished" in case of the girl he finds, makes this kind of reaction a MUST, for it to properly fit into what happened. Because it clearly shows us, that he at the latest 'gave up on her' (the English Language has really not a exactly fitting term for his situation^^) then, probably already mostly after the confession.
Any other 'positive' choice in his reaction would have made his reaction really weird in the context and out of character.

Although I think Tokai defused chapter 693 a bit with Sakura's thoughts during the very first of his' chapters, but Naruto of course doesn't know that.


#936800 The Great Naruto Discussion Thread

Posted by Aevrum on 10 April 2017 - 08:48 AM

In my opinion it's one thing to be someone's best friend, it's another to obsess over them like they are the only one in your life that matters, AS CLEARLY is the case with Naruto and Sasuke. Kishi is saying that they have bonds with others and care about their friends but he did a piss poor job job at portraying it as Naruto and Sasuke only obsess about each other even though there is no feasible reason to. They NEVER bonded, even in part I so how they are even best friends/spiritual brothers doesn't even make sense in the context. Kishimoto, when I think about couldn't eve portray his main core THEME PROPERLY. And he expects that NAruto and Sasuke's bond is believable? Especially when they don't put anyone else on the same level of importance? well in Sasuke's case, anyone who is alive, technically speaking. If you think about it Naruto and Sasuke were rivals only, never friends, their relationship in Part I was about Naruto trying to outdo Sasuke then Sasuke feeling the same in reverse after he realized he still was not even close to beating Itachi and witnessing NAruto go toe to toe with Gaara. they did not even part on amicable terms at the end of their fight and NEVER DID throughout part II. Now taking all of this into consideration can you TRULY call them friends?
 
To put this into perspective, did anyone here read/ watch Shaman King to the end? To those that do, remember how Lyserg left the group to pursue his revenge against Hao? And yet Yoh still visits him on multiple occasions, and while Yoh may not accept or even like Lyserg's choices, he understands he cannot convince Lyserg otherwise because it's his decision to make. THAT IS A true friend, not this idiotic writing here in Naruto, where Naruto is all like "Sasuke you're doing this this against your will and I don't accept your choice, so you must agree with me or I'm dragging your @$$ back home with me!!!!! Where as Sasuke is like "Naruto stop following me or I will kill you!!!! In fact because you're my best friend, I WILL kill you so the pain will make me stronger!!!!" That doesn't sound like friendship to me. Does anyone here think otherwise? :mellow:


I think they drove themselves into a deadlock with trying to postpone and highlight the Sasuke vs. Naruto end fight (In my opinion the fight and Sasuke's return should have happened much earlier, before the fight against the 'evil guys' [Which they partly simply HAD to implement, with Sasuke helping during the war/'Team-7-fighting-reunion']) and then realized themselves, that the bond between them is not believable enough to justify the 'obsession'.
That's why they included the flashbacks from the earlier academy days later on, but it was never enough, because they couldn't insert more bonding than that, because it would clash with Naruto's and Sasuke's behaviour towards each other in part 1.
(Ignoring the Sage of the six paths, Indra, Ashura reincarnation BS, which was supposed to show us that it was 'destiny' all along and f***ing up their bond and so many 'Naruto-motives')

But again, I think they did this compatibility to the (earlier) storyline the best way possible.
But of course, a different route with the Sasuke-Naruto dynamic in part 2 would have worked MUCH better, but the Sasuke vs. Naruto motive was just too popular and anticipated to let it drop/happen earlier.


#935870 Naruto: Alternative The Last (Doujinshi)

Posted by Aevrum on 31 March 2017 - 11:19 AM

They didn't really interact, but there was this silent acknowledgment, they understood each other, especially Sasuke Naruto.
And obviously the (pretty one-sided) rivalry with the training fights etc.


#935868 Boruto The Next Generation: Chapter 11

Posted by Aevrum on 31 March 2017 - 11:13 AM

This is quite similar to that one filler episode where Naruto is watching this rich boy...

I personally don't like Konohamaru's design, and Sarada's design and characterization is just - I mean, why do they have to sexualize her?

And it's going the foreshadowed 'evil-with-tech' route. I have to say that I like the "a bit more modern" setting here, it seems to be toned down a bit compared to 700 or the movie?

Ruffy-Mitsuki is my favourite till now, but I still can't forget, that he is a sick experiment of Orochimaru and nobody says or does something!


#935661 Why DO we like Narusaku?

Posted by Aevrum on 27 March 2017 - 04:17 PM

I recently (re-)watched and finished the “complete” Anime and just wanted to post my thoughts about NaruSaku somewhere and stumbled across this forum. (And found now 3 months later finally the time to do it^^)

I think it is kind of a different perspective on the whole thing, because I also want to explain some aspects I thought as a child about NS. It doesn’t fit completely in this thread here, with explaining my whole personal (roughly 10 years! Man, it feels like maybe 5,6, I’m really getting old^^) Naruto journey, but I think you can only really understand my point of view, when you know the backgrounds, and I couldn't find a better topic to post this in it. So be warned, it could get boring to read, also because I think you probably discussed every point up and down in the last two years :)

I'm not a native English speaker, heck I even have not written anything in English for nearly 3 years now, so please excuse my bad grammar, horrible syntax, catastrophic punctuation and maybe wrong usage of words, but I will try my best:

 

 

Long text, beware!^^



#933046 From a writing standpoint, what exactly is the appeal of Naruto and Hinata?

Posted by Aevrum on 25 February 2017 - 01:43 AM

I know you only stated other opinions, but I had to respond at these points^^:

 

 

 

NaruHina fans think Hinata is cute as a button (I do to) and NaruHina fans think we always root for the underdog. I mean, c'mon NaruHina fans think she's this cute little shy girl crushing on the guy that no-one likes, no-one wants, she's the only one who sees any value in him. NaruHina fans think It's sweet.

 

 

Isn't Naruto also the 'underdog' in NS and the whole manga (till he becomes ridiculously a semi-god)? And Sakura that girl everyone bullied, that seeks confirmation chasing the prodigy?

 

 

 

 

NaruHina fans think She's got the most believable and endearing love in the series. I don't wanna go into why I feel Sakura's enduring love feels tacked on but basically there's no real reason her, Ino or anyone else loves Sasuke. We haven't got a single reason why it's so. We have a slight reason Naruto loves Sakura but it's pretty flimsy (he gives it while she's freaking hitting on another guy...) but with Hinata we know exactly what Naruto means to her, why he means so much to her and we've seen her growth through him.

 

 

That's actually my biggest problem with NH: It's all talk and no action and that from the beginning. If he really means something to her, why didn't she do something during the academy days? You would think, after witnessing his struggle and observing him, she would be inclined to help him out and try to cheer him up - but no, she is satisfied with watching, comforting herself with her shyness. Later she takes his nindo and(, if it was not hypocritical enough, after not helping him) does nothing to progress on this 'ninja way'. Always thinking about how she will be like Naruto, but at the end doing nothing and not growing at all.

 

  • Mutual support, as above in part 1. Where she was the only one to see value in him, he was the only one to see value in her. Literally everyone else told her to Forfeit to Neji or to give up, or told Naruto to give up on her. Naruto was cheering for her and telling her she could change while she was getting beaten to within an inch of her life. Then when he showed his weakness to her before his fight to Neji she supported him and gave him the self belief he needed to win.

I watched the whole Anime a few months ago, after not being interested in Naruto for several years, and watched it with 'pro-NH-goggles', because they became canon. But Naruto's cheering for Hinata was as anti-NH as a scene can be. It featured a totally kitten Naruto, who didn't care about Hinata's well being and that she nearly died, and only wanted to prove Neiji wrong, to feel vindicated in his narrow-minded world-view. She was seriously wounded and he still used his power over her, to make her continue with the fight. The bload oath was pretty nice, but also overshadowed by the fact that HE was the cause for all this. 

 

But I have to agree with the 'proud failure' part, that was really great.

 

  • Building on that point, NaruHina fans think she is literally the only person he's ever shown self doubt/confidence to. His confession to her is far more open than he's with to anyone. He couldn't tell Sasuke that he's not really any good, he would never tell Sakura that he doesn't believe in himself, he could never admit to anyone how painful his failures are. There's a number of times through the series we see Naruto putting on an act/mask for his friends, where he's all happy and laughing then as soon as he's alone he's serious and thoughtful. His talk with Hinata is the only time he ever takes his mask off, she's the only one he let himself be vulnerable around.

That's simply not true. One look from chapter 1 to the end of the wave arc paints a whole other picture.

 

  • NaruHina fans see Her growth through him, NaruHina fans think it's been inspiring seeing this girl who was weak, was useless to her clan, who couldn't reach any of her dreams saw his strength, followed his Nindo and chased him endlessly to finally be able to walk beside him.

See above. She has done nothing and was not able to walk beside him, no matter how much she talked.

 

  • As a meta point. Because she's nice and sweet and nice sweet girls never ever win. If you've watched much Anime or read much Manga you'll know that the "First Girl always wins" and that the "Violent Tsundere always wins". Literally from the first volume of Naruto you'd normally assume it'd be a Naruto alone or NaruSaku ending. Hinata changes that, girls like Hinata never, ever win. NaruHina fans think It's nice that she one, Because NaruHina fans think this is the first time in ages it looks like one may have a chance. It's nothing if not a nice change of pace.

I have actually no right talking about this, but this is silly^^.

 

 

  • NaruHina fans think Her confession was brilliant, both in terms of character and in terms of story. Very few Shonen do romance at all as anything more than the most minor of all possible sub plots. They have a designated love interest and ignore it or they just use stupid cliche conventions and interrupts to keep kitten going. Naruto doesn't do any of that and it has a confession right in the middle of the series, not at the end, not after some romantic moment, but literally in the heat of battle as she goes to sacrifice her life for him. It was a kittening amazing moment, you'd never expect it.

I think it was as cliche, as a confession can really be in a battle format. Plus it destroyed what I liked about NH, that she didn't shove her feelings down Naruto's throat. Here she jumps planless into the action to simply just die after confessing, because she knows he doesn't love her back and, seriously, why should she live after 'losing' her 'Naruto-Kun'? What a waste of story-telling-potential.

 

  • NaruHina fans see that She was willing to die for him, but more than that, she's willing to face anything for him. Compare the girl that's literally shaking at the thought of facing her cousin to the woman who's willing to face down Pain, who'll block the Jyuubei from Naruto without a second thought, who'll stand strong infront of the Shinobi Alliance Army and call them to her side to face down Madara.

See above and again hypocrisy at it's finest. Guilt-tripping Naruto together with her cousin, that he has to also fight for 'her', during the kittening war. If she had stayed true to her words in part 1, she would have been stronger and Neiji wouldn't have had to die, so that that scene wouldn't even have happened.

 

  • And again NaruHina fans think she's just really sweet and nice. You can't help but want nice things for someone like Hinata. But for me Sasuke would be be something nice for her

Okay, I think this doesn't need a comment, I guess other characters don't deserve nice things^^

 

  • NaruHina fans think Naruto and Hinata are the only ones who can understand each other. Hinata was weak and hated herself for her weakness, Naruto was weak and hated himself for his weakness. Where Hinata was about to give up she saw Naruto and saw "the right way", how he worked hard, he never gave up and even though he didn't really believe in himself he believed that one day he would. The whole Proud Failure bit is kittening brilliant, she doesn't want some genius Ninja, she wants him because he's what she wants to be, a Proud Failure rather than just a Failure. Hinata works as hard as anyone, she's not weak from lack of effort, she works hard following his example and is still weak, she still can't match up... But she, like him believes one day she'll be strong.

All the things above, plus: Naruto doesn't understand her a bit, he was never really weak and didn't hate himself, and we were literally shown, how she brings her father and Neiji tea instead of training, while thinking about how she will get better. It's a joke.

 

  • NaruHina fans think She's a foil but no more than the other girls are, none of them really get any kind of development at all Hinata at least gets a full character arc, we see her grow from a timid girl to a strong, brave woman. Having her idolise Naruto was a good way of juxtaposing both characters together, it's not some baseless fantasy like what Ino (and Sakura at least early on) had of Sasuke. It's based in their joint weakness. Through the reasons she likes him we learn about Naruto, we see how hard he's always worked, we see how easy he could have gone down the path she almost did, and to a lesser extent it ties in nicely with Shikamaru's conversation with his father about Naruto making people want to follow him, to be their best.

This is a joke right? Is there really someone thinking like this? What path?^^ She had, again, no growth and hers was the biggest fantasy: She idolized Naruto, he was everything she wished to be. She didn't really understand him - he was her fountain of inspiration, you have to give nothing back. And what makes it better: Her motivations, in their foundations, were always idol-romantical. How she faints, like teens seeing their idolized pop-star on stage. That's totally unhealthy.

 

  • Flawless? She's shy to the point of ridiculousness. If you want more flaws she'd need to have more screen time, side characters in Naruto get almost none and women even less. I mean, what's Temari's flaws? What's Inos? What's Kushinas? Hinata's flaw is her lack of self confidence and her inherant weakness, keep in mind that she trains hard, yet she's still weak, her growth is about working through those flaws.

Every female character in Naruto is super flawed. The difference is: Hinata does the least in the end to grow out of them, she gets actually worse.

 

  • So again, sure she could do with a more nuanced personality but I mean... Even Sakura barely has anything in that way. What's Sakura's flaws? That she's got a hair-trigger anger? That's not really a flaw, that's part of her archetype as Tsundere (and just like Hinata's shyness, it's played up as endearing). Okay, so that she's got low chakra pool? I dunno, seriously, what's Sakura's flaws? She's the Heroine here, she's had far more development and panel time than Hinata.

Not worth adressing^^

 

  • The "Perfect woman a man desires" is actually again, part of her archetype. Hinata falls under the Yamato Nadeshiko type trope. But I mean, it's just an archetype, it's not any more relevant than if the series had an Ojousama, an Imuouto an Osana Najimie etcetc. Most of the characters in Naruto, or hell any manga are based around one archetype or another, they're then twisted and changed enough to be unique. I don't wanna keep bringing it back to a NaruHina vs NaruSaku thing but Sakura's the main heroine so she's the obvious comparison and she's an archetypical Tsundere.

Fair point, again a thing of 'taste'.

 

 

 

Wow, that went pretty anti now^^ I of course focused on the negative points, but my conclusion is this:

NH had a super solid foundation in part 1 to build on (but [sadly, in retrospect?] nowhere near NS or SS emotions-wise), but it got totally destroyed in all it's outstanding features in part 2, only to still become canon.




#933037 From a writing standpoint, what exactly is the appeal of Naruto and Hinata?

Posted by Aevrum on 25 February 2017 - 12:02 AM

Good topic. And one I think about as an NS writer too. Why the appeal for NH?
 
I mean, I get it with SS he's the super-tough, orphan prodigy and Sakura is his opposite as the scrappy girl who pulls herself up using her own strength. It's Zuko and Katara (and a million other pairings).
 
But NH? Without radically changing Hinata, it's just a flimsy fairytale romance. She wins the hero that she's too shy to speak to just by virtue of her goodness. She does nothing to act, to change and become his equal. Instead, he takes notice of her. The romance is strictly one-sided.
 
For writers (and readers) I think the decision to focus on NH is based in their personal preference rather than the existence of a compelling story or great chemistry between the two characters. NH could be the straight-up fairy tale (hero picks the shy girl, against all odds), it could be that they identify with Naruto as a child-like hero going for the blemish-free princess, or it could be that they identify with the super-shy girl who gets noticed by the cool boy.  
 
For me, to make NH a more interesting story, then Hinata would have to change. She would have to grow into someone worthy of being the main hero's counterpart, emotionally develop past her self-doubt to be a confident person, grow beyond her civilian duties to her family to become a powerful shinobi in her own right, and actively move toward seizing that love offered to her. And at the point that all these happen, it's clear that she's worthy to stand next to Naruto because she has finally become...Sakura. :love:


Funny, with me it's quite the opposite.
Maybe it's because I'm male (and with a mostly strict traditional Asian (turkish) background), that I can actually see the charm in NH, but actually detest SS:

[Leaving the character chemistry aside, where both are terrible.]

I mean, if I would have been Sasuke, I would have really hated Sakura.
A quick self-insert: She knows nothing about me as a person, does not care about my emotional status and feelings and makes during the whole story no real effort to change that fact. Always after the own goal to claim her 'prize' and 'dream', shallowly infuriated with my looks; and throwing herself at me after years of not really even seeing one another and knowing, that I'm not interested. And not to forget, that she doesn't even has the excuse anymore, that she is a kid, like it was in Part 1.

There is no way I would want to share my life with such a girl.
How could that be appealing to any male reader/watcher? And I can't really imagine this shallow Sakura here to be appealing to any female.

In contrast, NH is (a little bit) better.
It has SOME of the same problems in a weaker form (Hinata is again shallowly all about the man and is shown to be selfish about her love later in the manga in some scenes, like the Pain attack and the war), but she is much more 'defensive' in her approach. She knows, that she is selfish and doesn't know Naruto very much, which was stated many many times in the Manga, but would accept any decision Naruto makes, regarding his 'love-life', and wants to know him better.

The point which makes NH acceptable from my perspective is know, that it is clear, that there is no way, that you can have the love of your life (Sakura), and you are back in reality. And the first thing you see, is that friendly girl, that would never hurt you like SHE did and with whome you can live a humble and normal life, after everything you went through.

There is a saying in turkish, which states, "The most important things [in a relationship] are fondness, respect and comprehension [,the rest will come with time]", which I see as mostly given here.

Love is a thing, that has to develop out of these traits, which makes Hinata's building love throughout the years explainable, contrary to Sakura's wannabe love towards Sasuke.
(That's also why I see Naruto's affection towards Sakura soo much better than Hinata's to him, or Sakura's to Sasuke: At first, he simply states that he "like[s] her" [and does not throw the word 'love' around himself like other characters during the story; love is such a strong emotion and should not be used inflationary like preteens do it, only because you find someone good-looking]. Afterwards we get already in the same chapter, the other two main points at the bench: His respect for her and his comprehension, beside his fondness)

But that of course also means: You have to accept, that Naruto loves/loved Sakura and she broke his heart, to find NH appealing.
But I don't understand at the same time, how anyone found it appealing, BEFORE we were shown that Sakura was too addicted to Sasuke, at the last third of the manga.
I, myself, never ever even considered NH as a possibility, when I watched the Anime Part 1 and early Shippuden.


#931312 new kishimoto interview 2017

Posted by Aevrum on 31 January 2017 - 09:39 AM

What? A love triangle between Hinata/Sakura and Naruto? I think I watched a whole different series than Kishi.

Honestly, I just think he tries to use the affection they both showed towards Naruto at the Pain Arc to convince himself, that he seriously planned something like that at SOME point, and to ease his mind about the unlogical developments afterwards.

But that's also a confirmation, that he sees Sakura's feelings at romantic ones, so, whelp.

Nevermind that this interview also contradicts many other interviews he gave till now about the relationships, but I think that's normal with him now.