KnS

I read the chapter on my phone at 4:30 this morning, but since then I've been at work and couldn't comment until now.  Hurray for lunch hours!  Anyway, I have not read this thread so what I'm going to say is probably old news.  Sorry about that.

 

+ LOVED the rivalry between Naruto and Sasuke.  The staredown appraisal of each other's abilities.  I so, SO want Naruto to absolutely crush any and all of Sasuke's plans and delusions of godhood.  Save/redeem him if you must, Naruto, but CRUSH HIM FIRST!!!

 

+ Very pleased to see Kiba and Shino get a chance to prove they've grown too.  The bug thing creeps me out, but Shino is still a cool guy.  Out of all the skill sets, his is the one that freaks me out the most.

 

+ Am I the only one who worries about Akamaru?

 

+ Hinata.  After his admission that he considers Sakura his girlfriend, I don't see how Hinata could be be thinking of Naruto as an obtainable partner -- assuming she ever did.  What I saw in this chapter is Hinata realizing she needs to continue taking risks, being brave, and improving herself if she's going to keep up and stay "at Naruto's side."  It's a shame that her motivation continues to be focused on Naruto only, but Kishimoto has been very consistent about this in her characterization. 

 

If anything, this chapter highlighted the HUGE disparity between Hinata and Sakura.  Hinata takes small, unconfident steps trying to become and stay even with the object of her affection.  Meanwhile Sakura takes confident, giant leaps to become even with both her teammates -- with no hint whatsoever that any part of her motivation includes romance.  As I said in a recent post, "One acting like a powerful ninja, the other acting like a lovestruck girl.  Inconvenient for Sakura haters, perhaps, but that doesn't make it any less true."

 

So NH still dead?  Check.  Sakura still the strong heroine of the story?  Check.  Moving on.

 

+ Ino's disgust with Shino's moves made me laugh.  To be honest, Shiino is a secret crack pairing of mine, because Ino is such a superficial girl it would be so entertaining to see her have to get over herself with the "bug guy."  Seeing her reaction in this chapter just brought it all back to me.  But I digress.

 

+ The Human Bullet Yo-yo was terrific.  I love the Team 10 collaboration.  They really have it going on.

 

+ I was really glad to see my favorite yenta, Sai.  I was afraid he was dead he'd been out of the picture for so long!  Despite Kishimoto making Sai get PWNED in this chapter, it was useful.  His failure provided good intel on what to do next, plus it showed another aspect of Naruto's reach -- literally. 

 

And I think Sai is still going to be key to the story -- as Sasuke's stand-in with Team 7, and as the great NS counselor/facilitator.  Sai is one of Kishimoto's pet exposition characters, and he used him that way even in this chapter by relating the tactical issues and strategy through him.

 

+ "This size... is indeed quite a burden."  Hashirama, the king of understatement. 

 

+ I have to admit I felt a surge of adrenaline when I saw the panel of Team 7 biting their thumbs.  I couldn't wait to click the page and see the Neo Sannin.  Bloody hell.  How cool is that?  (I don't like Sasuke any better, but still... it's cool!)

 

+ Here's hoping Gamakichi will comment on Naruto's girlfriend again.

 

+ It appears that Sakura is not done proving the value and range of her abilities. 

You crack me up.

 

If he stalls on this any longer, I will be very unhappy.

 

But... in #632 Naruto is "lady lips scared" of Sakura.  (Last time he looked like that was with his mother, wasn't it?)  How is he ever going to get his act together and put the moves on her? 

 

 

Seriously, though, I think these panels say a lot.  Naruto's reaction is all about acknowledging Sakura's mad skillz.  It's also about his relationship with her -- how even in his own goofy way he's looking toward the future with the expectation that she'll be in it with him. 

 

Meanwhile, Sasuke's reaction is acknowledgement, I guess -- at least it is for him -- but there's also something condescending about it.  It's certainly not personal like Naruto's reaction.

 

I really don't like Sasuke, have I mentioned that? 

That being said, I think there is a good chance that that won't happen, because Sakura's final development also revolves around Sasuke. To have her fan-girl over him now would be putting her all the way back at square one. She may show some degree of feelings for Sasuke once more, (not necessarily "fan-girling", though at this point, I think the fandom will label anything that Sakura does that involves Sasuke "fan-girling"), but that's going to come to an abrupt halt as soon as whatever Sasuke is scheming surfaces.

 

I agree with all of this.  Especially the part about no matter the substance or context of Sakura's interactions with Sasuke, it will be perceived by many to be fangirling.  But then, that depends entirely on one's definition of fangirling.

I'm personally not concerned with the fear and paranoia over what Kishimoto will do.  No matter what he does, or no matter how clear he makes things, there will continue to be fear and paranoia until the story is over.  Even then I would not be surprised if there aren't some who believe he will write an epilogue (or second epilogue) that shows everything we read in the manga was a dream, and it will really, really, really end up some other way.  That's about how ridiculous the theories are getting. 

 

*sigh*

 

There was fear and paranoia about Hinata's future role after #615.  Fear and paranoia that Naruto meant something with the holding of Hinata's hand only.  There is still fear and paranoia that Hinata will somehow reemerge -- even after #631 -- to nullify the Sakura/Kushina parallel and be Naruto's girlfriend because he was "joking."  SS is just getting the most focus of fear and paranoia now because Sasuke is back.

One would think that if Kishimoto intended to make the characters regress, or senselessly drag out the pairings, he would have made Naruto's response to the girlfriend question vague.  But instead he torpedoed NH in a few panels.

Will Kishimoto "ruin" his story, NS, or Sakura's characterization by making her regress with Sasuke?  No one knows for sure.  But at the moment there is no compelling reason to think he will.  It seems to me he has been very straightforward in the last few chapters, and I hate to see anyone fretting.

 

Like I said earlier, something is going to happen that will lead to her making a concrete decision about her feelings, one way or the other. The fate of that lies in the hands of both Sasuke and Naruto. For the record, I'll be just as pissed if Naruto doesn't start showing Sakura that he's serious about her as I will be if Kishimoto decides to have Sakura run back to Sasuke. Other than asking her for the occasional date, he hasn't really given her a serious reason to believe that he wants to pursue a romantic relationship with her.

 

Bolded:  YES!  Ugh.  As I've said elsewhere on this board many times, Naruto needs to own his love for Sakura and do something about it.  Like she said just recently, "Stop sniveling and grow a pair!" 

 

Did you hear that, Naruto? 

About the Sakura and Sasuke stuff....

 

I think that tolerance/forgiveness of behavior that would rarely be tolerated or forgiven in real life is meant to be a part of the framework of this story.  One of the main themes is about acceptance, ending the cycle of hatred, and persevering with your belief in those you care about.

 

As we all know, the Third struggled to kill Orochimaru regardless of what he had done.  Jiraiya never totally gave up on him either.  Naruto can't give up on Sasuke.  Kakashi struggled with the thought of killing Sasuke as well, and even thought of the Third at that moment.  Kakashi is trying to save Obito right now.

 

While I agree that even a Narutoverse girl should get past romantic love for a guy who has tried to kill her repeatedly and shown no remorse, she should not be expected to hate the guy or give up on his redemption any more than any other character.  If Naruto can still care about Sasuke after what he's done, Sakura can still care about him too. 

 

And I think that's what we're going to see -- Sakura will care about Sasuke and what happens to him, but no longer want him in a romantic sense.  We've been shown a number of signs that the complete transformation of her feelings is going to happen if it hasn't already.

 

Also, it's not just Sakura who would need to let go and move on from her romantic attachment to an inappropriate choice.  The same would be true for Hinata.  Sure, Naruto hasn't tried to kill her nor has he even mistreated her, but he hasn't exactly been a prince to her, either. She nearly got herself killed because she wanted so much to make her love known to him, and her whole life and nindo have revolved around him. 

 

Nevertheless, Naruto has not only not acknowledged her feelings in a significant way, he very recently declared another girl to be his girlfriend right in front of her.  If Hinata was a girl we knew in real life, odds are the advice we'd give her is something like, "Forget him. He doesn't care about you the way you deserve.  Move on and find a guy who doesn't love someone else." 

 

I just don't want Sakura to be the only one judged for hanging onto misplaced feelings longer than we think she should have.

 

Overall, I don't think Kishimoto has been attempting to apply "real world" morality to any part of his story, so why are we tempted to expect "real world" reactions from his characters when it comes to the romance subplots?

 

We, as readers, shouldn't be capable of suspending our disbelief for all the other stuff -- breathing fire, turning your arm into a lightning blade, resurrecting the dead through human sacrifice, demons sealed into infants, etc., etc. -- on the one hand, and yet on the other hand balk at the lack of realism when a teenage girl has romantic feelings for a guy who treats her poorly.

 

I'm pretty sure Sakura is going to figure everything out anyway. 

 

Just my opinion.

Exactly. They're unbelievably critical of her character.

 

A pro-Hinata/anti-Sakura bias is one thing, but the whole argument went off the rails with "the bored dismissal that [Naruto] gives to Sakura's confession."     Naruto went through a lot of different emotions during Sakura's confession, but no matter how you slice it, "bored dismissal" was not one them.  A statement like that doesn't betray a simple bias, it betrays a blatant denial of the facts.

It's not a crime to dislike a character -- even Sakura.  Prefering Hinata?  That's okay too.  Each of us are attracted to and affected by different things about different characters, and those preferences are going to lead us to subjective bias at times.  Again, no crime there.

The problem creeps in when a fan cannot acknowledge their bias, or admit they are unwilling to apply their standards for character behavior consistently.

The argument spanning the last few pages of this thread was also off the rails when Sakura -- and only Sakura -- was judged for allowing Sasuke to fight with them, and for setting aside everything he's done to her and others in that moment in order to face a common enemy.  It was immediately presumed that her willingness to do this was all because of romance and fangirling, even though no such behavior or intention is in evidence.

As several others pointed out, she simply followed Naruto's lead and it's ridiculous to judge Sakura harshly based on her willingness to fight alongside her old teammate -- and likely only temporarily while the battle conditions are grave -- especially when Naruto chose to do so first.

 

It's not as if there has been no precedent for such.  Regardless of what Orochimaru did, Jiraiya never gave up following him and keeping an eye out for him.  Are we to believe that if Orochimaru had turned away from evil -- briefly or permanently -- that Jiraiya and Tsunade would have rejected him or his help in a situation where his contribution might help achieve success?

Are we to believe that Kakashi is worthy of hate because he's in the other dimension with Obito right now, trying to recover whatever humanity and goodness might remain in him?  If Obito ends up assisting the alliance in any way, should the benefits of his actions be refused because he once did terrible things?

What irks me the most is the suggestion that Sakura did not react as a capable kunoichi with something to offer to the battle, but as a romance-driven Sasuke fangirl -- despite the fact that she stepped up AFTER Naruto had already done so.

Sakura's entire focus was on proving that her skills could compete with those of her teammates, and that she could offer them and the alliance something of considerable value in the fight.  That is a very, very, VERY far cry from Hinata's motivation to rush out and confront Pain, with no strategy or suitable skills and with no tangible or stated goal other than to declare her love for Naruto and die with him.

 

One acting like a powerful ninja, the other acting like a lovestruck girl.  Inconvenient for Sakura haters, perhaps, but that doesn't make it any less true.

 

Just my opinion.

 

P.S.  I don't devalue Hinata's current bravery in battle.  She has grown a lot, and I give her credit for that.  The degree to which her skills, strength, and confidence has developed is, however, still far below Sakura's in my opinion, but that's to be expected.  Sakura is the story's heroine.

 

631 did not make NS cannon. We are not quiet there yet, and until we get a formal resolution, expect to see more of this. 

 

I agree.  There will be more.  Sakura's confused feelings will have to be addressed.  

But like I was saying (back on the #631 thread, I think), I can't see a plausible way for Kishimoto to further complicate or really drag out Sakura's confusion.  He has brought his characters and their interactions a long way, and it seems that Sakura has grown too much to realistically fall back to a fangirling state.  Sakura doesn't have to regress for the final pairing issues to have an exciting conclusion.  

And Kishimoto certainly didn't drag out NH the way he could have.  Instead he sunk it handily with a few panels in #631, by reinforcing what had already been shown in the story:  Naruto loves Sakura, Hinata's confession did not change his feelings, and his actions and motivation in #615 were platonic because his heart was and always had been elsewhere.

It's more complicated to resolve Sakura's feelings, but that doesn't mean Kishimoto will necessarily choose to belabor it.  Purely from a storytelling perspective, there's a lot he can (and probably will) do to continue moving Sakura beyond her feelings for Sasuke and toward Naruto without having to focus on it directly.  

It might be that instead of compounding the melodrama, Kishimoto will systematically give Sakura more reasons and awareness that Naruto is her true choice.  Who knows... we might get more panels like this:



As the manga draws to a close, there are a lot of plot points and character motivations to resolve that on the face of it don't have anything to do with Team 7 romance.  However, what Orochimaru does as well as how Hashirama v. Madara and Kakashi v. Obito play out will likely influence what happens with Naruto v. Sasuke, which in turn will influence Sakura's feelings for them.  

So yeah, there will be more pairing stuff to endure in the story, but I don't see it being a big vortex of angst -- except in the fandom, of course. x__X

 

 

The biggest hurdle to SS has always been Sasuke. And it's still that.

 

 

And really, this is where Kishimoto has been most consistent.  Sasuke has shown zero signs of interest in Sakura, and zero signs of any real positive change toward his role in Team 7.  The only way I see him showing any interest in Sakura is if, now that he sees her strength and usefulness, he tries to manipulate her for the sake of his agenda.  But after the "if you mean it, kill Karin" episode, I don't see that working.

 

Regardless, like you said, this feel-good moment and spirit of collaboration won't last.  The Sauce has other plans.

But thats somehow not really possible. He cant be dead serious about her beeing his girlfriend and at the same time know that she not right now. I think hes serious about meaning that hes doenst know whats really going on between them right now but the sentence he said cant be really taken serious, because if we take his words literally they mean that shes his girlfriend right now, but she isnt.

I think maybe you're reading it too literally, and not giving the "more or less" part enough weight.

The question was, is Sakura his girlfriend. Naruto's answer tells us that as far as his feelings are concerned, and based on where things were left after her confession, he's thinking she might be. Sort of.

And that's the thing. At this point, Sakura is as much his girlfriend as she isn't, and that's what Naruto was saying -- "more or less."

Like I said before, it's Shrodinger's cat. ;)

The thing is that naruto himself told sakura that he believes shes lying about her feelings for him and still believs that she loves sasuke, but now suddenly he is dead serious about her beeing his girlfriend. That simply doesnt fit.

The only possibility i see about the scene is like KnS posted, that he just isnt really sure whats going on between him and her right now, so he says "yeah thats more or less it".

 

When I go back and reread Sakura's confession, Naruto's reaction and the progression he goes through is worth reviewing now that we can see it light of the latest chapters.

It's my personal opinion that before the confession, Naruto didn't believe he had any real shot at Sakura.  I do think he held out hope, because it's his nature to prove himself and not give up, but because he loved Sakura so much he was resigned to bringing Sasuke to her feet and accepting that in doing so he might very well never win her heart himself.  

Whatever chance he thought he had, it's pretty obvious he didn't feel he deserved it UNLESS he fulfilled his promise and brought Sasuke back for her.  So he was running a big risk because, after all, he thinks the sun rises and sets by Sakura so why would he ever dream that Sasuke would reject her if Sasuke was in his right mind?

That was Naruto's mindset when she confessed:  Sakura loved Sasuke only and held no similar feelings for him, and she would never change or give up on that love because Naruto doesn't think that way.

But thanks to Sakura's determination and Sai's clarification, I think Naruto walked away from her confession with the belief that even if Sakura wasn't 100% in love with him and/or 100% out of love with Sasuke, he was at least in the game -- and with a better chance of success than he'd imagined.

So yes, I do think Naruto is "dead serious" about Sakura being his girlfriend, but he is aware that it's not a done deal.  When Minato asked him, Naruto finally made the choice to publicly admit his desires and intentions regarding Sakura -- something he had been unwilling to do before.  

That was the point of the scene, I think.  That Sakura's confession made Naruto realize he had a chance, and that plus what I said before -- that Sakura said she loved him, asked him to refuse her if he didn't feel the same way and he didn't deny it -- left them at an uncertain boyfriend/girlfriend status.

Naruto being Naruto, now that the door is open and he believes he could win her heart?  I think we're going to see him be a lot more obvious, determined, and unwilling to be sidelined from here on.

 

Just my opinion.
 

 

That's why he said  "more or less". Meaning he hasn't got confirmation from Sakura.

 

Hmm.  I see it a little differently.  Consider:

+ Sakura tromps out to the snowy Land of Iron and tells Naruto she loves him in front of Kakashi-sensei, Yamato-taicho, and several of their friends.

+ The look on Naruto's face clearly proves that those are the words he's been waiting to hear from her.

+ Nevertheless, Naruto begins to distrust and question Sakura.  He tells her that joking about something like her feelings for him isn't funny.

+ Naruto tells Sakura very seriously that he hates people who lie to themselves.

+ Sakura responds by getting angry.  She is indignant that Naruto dares to say she doesn't know her own mind or how she feels.  She tells him to quit trying to twist things around, and that if he doesn't like her / love her / want her / feel the same way then he should just say so.

+ Naruto does not deny his feelings for her.  He simply questions again why she would bring it all up at that moment.

+ Sakura leaves, and Sai goes on to give a better explanation of her actions.  He also confirms that Sakura's actions were for Naruto's sake.

The bottom line is, Sakura said she loved Naruto and when she essentially asked him to refuse her if he didn't feel the same way, he didn't.  

So even though both Naruto and Sakura (and the witnesses, for that matter) know it's not that simple, and that the issue of her feelings for Sasuke have not been 100% resolved, and Naruto was not satisfied that she chose him willingly and for the right reasons, that's how it was left -- that they were "more or less" boyfriend and girlfriend because neither denied it.

 

That's why Naruto answered his father the way he did.  He stumbled with the answer because it's basically true -- because of Sakura's confession and Naruto's desire + his lack of refusal -- but it's not clearly resolved.  Kishimoto used Minato to ask the question as a way of letting readers know where Naruto stands. 

"Naruto says he won’t joke around with Sakura ever again. Heavily implies he was joking in his response last chapter which disproves this idea that he’s still “in love” with Sakura and that the hand holding with Hinata was totally platonic. So NH isn’t dead like NS is so desperately trying to claim it is."

 

What do you guys think of that?

 

Allow me to borrow/modify something I posted on the #631 thread....

 

 

This is what Naruto looks like when he's joking / not serious / lying about his relationship with Sakura.  You can tell he's lying not only by his words but by his expression and posture as well.  There's always some kind of "tell" when he's joking.  He's got a cheesy smile, or he's doing something completely outrageous, or he's sneaking around, or he's generally being a doofus. 

Then there's #631....

 

 

We get a significantly different expression and response from Naruto. He is as sober as a judge here. The look on his face is serious.  The words he uses are serious.  There's no hint of joking whatsoever.  HE IS NOT JOKING.

 

I can understand why anti-NS folks would want to downplay this moment as a joke or something casual, but I can't understand why any NS fan would say he is joking here when he clearly is not.  He's not even smiling, for crying out loud!

 

The comment Naruto made in #632 -- "I'll never, never turn on Sakura-chan again... she'll pulverize me...." or "Ne-never again... I can't ever poke fun of Sakura-chan again... otherwise she'll turn me into a stain...."  (depending on the translation) -- WAS a joke.  You can tell by the "lady lips" caricature of his face and the overall silliness. He's referring to all the stupid jokey crap he's done over the years to get a rise out of her -- the Oiroke no Jutsu, teasing her about being strong, etc. -- NOT his feelings for her.

 

Remember his reaction in #469?  How he told Sakura -- twice -- that joking about something like loving him or choosing him over Sasuke wasn't funny?  Right.  But we're supposed to believe he turned around and "joked" about Sakura being his girlfriend to his father?  Please. 

 

As far as I'm concerned, trying to link the obvious joke in #632 to Naruto's answer to his father in #631 is either willful blindness or a desperate attempt to invalidate Naruto's declared feelings for Sakura.

My thoughts/reactions whilst reading the chapter....

 

+ Hinata stuttering again when talking to Kiba tells me she was not completely transformed by her interaction with Naruto or her battlefield experiences, nor is she super confident and assertive.  This is telling.

+ Jugo... Yeah.  Sasuke's not trustworthy, but we knew that.

+ I didn't comment on this last time it was shown, but the Juubi looking like the Rafflesia flower... the allusion to that flower -- and the smell of rotting flesh -- is really disgusting.  It's a clever visual cue, though, to what the Juubi is all about.

+ Totally looking forward to Madara vs. Hashirama.

+ The flashbacks of Sakura's past and the missing moments of her training with Tsunade were great.  I'm SO GLAD that Kishimoto followed through with Sakura's power and determination.  She is now, unquestionably, the heroine of her generation.  Finally seeing that diamond seal on her forehead is beyond words.  Satisfaction at last.

+ I actually liked how Sakura got so caught up in her moment of triumph that she lost focus, took her eye off the enemy for a second, and the boys covered for her.  It's not only a reflection of how normal and human Sakura is, but a reflection of how everyone, no matter how strong they may be, needs support.  

+ The whole ending was truly a Team 7 moment, and I'm a little sad that Kakashi wasn't there to see his team demonstrate -- even after all the crap Sasuke has put them through -- that they learned the essentials of the bell test.

+ Naruto's jealousy... he's simply too cute for his own good.  I loved Sakura teasing him.  Her attitude bodes well for him, I believe. 

 

+ Kishimoto has created a new term:  foreheadshadowing.  A badass seal on Sakura's forehead + Naruto's secret fetish about her forehead = Naruto will comment on/kiss Sakura's forehead.  If it wasn't totally obvious before, it is now.  


P.S.  I just skimmed over the posts here, but you can count me squarely in the "Sakura was so NOT blushing" camp.  Based on the tone, context, and progression of the panels it makes zero sense to assume she blushed.  The entire point of the focus on Sakura was to prove her growth, strength, confidence, and equality with the boys.  The notion that she would turn right around and blush at being "saved" by one of them is, in my opinion, ridiculous.  I don't get why people try so hard to find things to worry about or ruin the mood.  Seriously.

I don't really know what to expect.  In all honesty, after #631 I haven't been able to imagine a scenario where Sakura's remaining feelings for Sasuke -- whatever they are -- could even give the temporary appearance of threatening where she's at with Naruto.

And I'm not saying that as a blind shipper.  I'm saying that as a reader who expects more complication regarding Sakura's old feelings for Sasuke.  I just can't see any way that it could be addressed that wouldn't seem like a clunky, implausible, backward step.

I mean, the events in #631 were a big deal.  Naruto pretty much put his intentions/feelings for Sakura out there.  Sasuke showed up and Sakura didn't react with hopeful, starry eyes.  Sasuke is unchanged, proving himself as cold, self-centered, and disconnected as ever.  Sasuke went on to announce his intention to subvert Naruto's dream of becoming Hokage -- a dream we know Sakura also holds close to her heart -- and Sakura didn't take his pronouncement any better than the other rookies.  

So where could a plausible SS moment fit in?

I suppose if Sasuke does something inadvertently noble again -- like against Haku when his "body moved on its own" and he saved Naruto's life (my pet theory) -- and Sakura has one last fantasy moment that he truly is a great guy if she's in love with him (*cue gagging sounds*) -- or something.  But still.  That really doesn't work.  Not in light of #631.

But something has to happen, right?  Because it's unlikely that Sakura would not revisit the conflict that has defined her relationship with the boys from the beginning.  I just can't see it.

 

And Karin is a wild card.  Her interaction with Sakura... back when Sakura healed her... hmm.

I, too, have been incredibly busy. As I've mentioned before, I have a fairly serious health problem that frequently puts me in no condition to do anything -- much less write fan fiction. On top of that I have a family member dying of cancer, and another in and out of the hospital due to a freak series of strokes that has left him paralyzed. I spent a lot of time in hospitals these days, and it sucks pretty majorly.

Point being, there's stuff going on in real life that prevents me from spending big blocks of time writing fan fiction. Writing is something I love, though, and I return to it whenever I can. I'm also working on an original novel.

As far as the overall slowdown of fic production/updates goes, I would encourage anxious readers to leave reviews on the stories they like. Even if you've already reviewed, leave one as a guest. Nothing boosts the morale and motivation of a writer like a review that says what a reader likes about their story and how much it is enjoyed.

I see a lot of readers complain about update slowness and seemingly unmotivated authors, but at the same time a lot of readers don't leave reviews to inspire the author and let them know their hard work is appreciated. There is a significant cost of time and effort for an author to produce a quality fic. By comparison, a review is easy.

When times get tough in a fandom -- or a pairing goes through a canon slump -- or even when everything's going great -- encouragement and building a strong fandom through fan fiction is a two-way street.

Just my opinion.