Khaleesi

Their friendship and rivalry should have had more development, It would have been interesting

 

Also, their colors together are cute!

 

 

 

 

 

 

If we are talking about the playful Naruto and how often it's the silly-one/responsible-one dinamic has been represented within Naruto and Sakura, then I would say Naruto would try not to be harsh on him.

 

I imagine him doingthese faces to Sakura or the teacher:

 

 

 

 

 

And Sakura scolding both of them, because his son is a lot like Naruto when he was a kid. 

 

Idk m8, I just think it would be cute u_u

As rightly said by Cersei, Dany is a revolutionary and not a monarch. As much as I hate her, she has made a good point. Dany carries tunnel vision. Hopefully, having Tyrion by her side will have good consequences. Not the attitude befitting a queen tho. Also, I was mildy impressed by Tyrion's strategy but I think he can do A LOT better. Reliable strategist and a diplomat tho.

In first place, a monarch is already something that should be wiped out of existence, like Dany did in the cities she left behind. But yeah, tbh un the books, Dany doesn't know what she is doing and she is even thinking twice about conquering Westeros. She is insecure. After all she is a kid! The books started with her being 14(17 un the shows). Eleven in the show you can see how Jon gets frustrates at her because her only argument is "I was born to rule, have you heard my stories?". I hope Tyrion will help her realize she doesn't make sense! The problem is that when she is contradicted she looks at them like "I can burn you alive, careful".

@Riverkid
You tried to do the same as me. Haha. The principal thing to point out there is that there is not understandment of the difference between intention and product :/

You know, I decided to give this a lot of thought. And upon thinking about it, I think it could be great provided we got rid of the Pain arc and had a Sasuke attacks Konoha arc instead. That way, when Sasuke is killed, this can be the low point in the story and Naruto can take the lessons he's learned into the final arc (which, as long as we're talking about a rewrite, would not be the Kage Summit Arc or War arc, since both arcs are terrible). Problem is that I don't think Kishimoto could pull this off compellingly. We've seen his attempt to have Naruto learn that "not everyone can be saved" with Neji and that was awful. It would take someone of Togashi's (Hunter x Hunter) or Oda's (One Piece) caliber in order to do this RIGHT. Also, no "cycle of hatred" or "destiny" BS.
 
The way I see it, the scene could play out with Naruto and Sasuke duking it out in the Kage's mansion (which would be on fire). Naruto would get the upper hand, Sasuke would do something low/underhanded and Sakura herself would stab him from behind upon realizing that Naruto was about to be killed and Sasuke would mutter "you really are annoying" upon realizing what happened. Sasuke's dead and Naruto/Sakura are broken mentally. Then, one arc of recovery and lesson-learning and they'd be stronger than ever.
 
Under this setup, Karin wouldn't kill herself. She'd go after Naruto for revenge. Maybe even plan some kind of overly complicated assassination or something.

Uhmmm, I Guess I would like to Karin to kill herself but that also works.

  

idk at what point you guys are in the debate right now, but I've been thinking something about red herrings.
 
If NS is a red herring it works in our favour. Because 1. we were analyzing the manga right, not NH fans. 2. NH may have been 'planned' but plans matters not until they are carried out. So if NH was ~planned~ in ch1 it means nothing when it only happened on a whim in the very end. If Kishi says NS was a red herring, then you can't say you saw NH from afar.
 
There's more. A red herring is a short distraction. No red herring lasts for over 600 chapters LOL. This 'red herring' got its own events in Japan and big support from the main character's VA. And, Naruto is also not a romance manga, thus there'd be no need to mislead subplot that is always consistent and simple in the genre. Anyone who isn't a damn vegetable would see the lies here.

 

This is close to what I've said before but I Guess you didnt read it.

1. If NS was made to mislead, it means that it was credible enough for any person to believe it was an end-game.

2.To be red-herring Kishimoto had to throw several scenes that would support the thought of it to be an end-game.

Consecuences:

1.Over 600 chapters of NS material that supports their relationship.

2. Even with NH in mind, the story was build up as if was NS, thus NS making more sense.

 

Oh jeez, please can you stop using the mis-read argument? It's really insulting, first how do you do for "mis-reading" something? Are you saying that because people put more weight to the more numerous interactions of the main character and his partner who he had a crush on than his interactions with a SIDE character that he only interacted, what 5 times, we MISREAD the manga??? Sorry, but no that's not how it works that just showcases Kishimoto's bad writing and last minute decision, hey @Analyzer if the Pein moment for Hinata was so important to NH, Why is SAKURA who hugs him after the fight and not his "true love"??? I would really like to hear your explanation on that, futhermore, as @Shashank95 said you ignored most of my comment, completely, I said numerous fans boycotted everything after the ending and your response was the same exact thing, angy fans who didn't get his/her ship canon, do you ever stop and think, well maybe people didn't like it because we didn't see Naruto's Hokage Ceremony (Wich was later turned into a stupid punchline which is BLATANTLY INSULTING for longtime manga readers but I disgress), maybe fans were mad we didn't get any resolution to Team 7,  the whole plot of part 2 was get Sasuke back so team 7 can be together again, well newsflash man, team 7 is now more dispersed than ever, Kakashi retired, Naruto and Sakura are strangers to each other and Sasuke isn't never at the village, so a whole plot point of part 2 with no resolution, great.
People have said it before but I'm pretty sure the only reason you defend theese things is because you are a NH, SS fan more than an NS fan or at the very least, you are more a fan of the canon than everything else , or maybe you are so much of a fanatic that if something is canon you will always go back and find excuses on how to justify it even when you KNOW it was a total wreck from a writing standpoint.

<3

This is a good post and you've made a lot of good points, but I'd have to disagree with this part. Sasuke should have gotten his comeuppance and Naruto should've learned what being hokage was about (i.e. not this "if I can't even save a friend, I can't be hokage" BS) , but unless Sasuke's death is of his own volition (realizing the error of his ways in the end and sacrificing himself to save Naruto---perhaps even with a good throwback to Zabuza arc when he jumped in the way to save Naruto from Haku), I'm just not sure it fits thematically to up and kill him off. I just can't see that kid who went out of his way to make a promise of lifetime promise to bring Sasuke back turning around and offing the dude without a boatload of character development to justify it.

I know it's a shonen manga but Hunter x Hunter is also for kids, yet had treated their alike characters (Gon and Killua/Kurapika) as how I would wanted to Naruto.

 

Sasuke should have died trying to redeem himself and saving Team 7, this would not redeem him, as for death to be a fair punishment for his crimes. Either this to be more idealistic 8as how Naruto discourse goes) or having him die following his ideals, which makes sense on how his character was build up. This would made Team 7 very sad, but even if Naruto and Sakura desired to save him, that is not always reality, see Darth Vader. For me, he should have died as a villian. And Naruto should have learn he can't save everyone and how selfish and obssesive of him was to pursue him and justify Sasuke's actions. Naruto doesn't really understands Sasuke, so I deeply understand why Sasuke gets annoyed at Naruto's, Sakura's and Kakashi's presence always on his tail.

 

Sasuke's death would have been a hell of a ground-breaking bonding moment and character development for Naruto and Sakura.

 

On a darker note, I would have also killed off Karin by suicide   But that's another story...

 

 

Which panels were they?

The examples of the manga I wrote.

The First part is mockery, so ignoring it.

 

You still don't understand contradiction. Here's the thing:

I decided NH at the end.

I decided NH at the beginning.

 

That's a contradiction.

 

I planned NH at the beginning.

I -decided- NH at the middle.

 

Is NOT a contradiction. Planned is the equivalent to the first draft.

Decided is equivalent to committing.

 

Do you understand now?

 

Your point about the Manga and Movie is irrelevant, because they're both canon. This does not diminish the other material in anyway, particularly since Kishimoto approved of the script after a lot of red marking. Note he says it wasn't his idea originally, but he certainly edited and help cultivate the idea. But again, the Last's canon status is indisputable, and should not be thrown out. Further, you don't need the Last to justify NH, it's well established in the manga.

 

You'll also have to elaborate exactly what is coming across as fact. You're generalizing and not really pointing to anything in particular in your example, basically restating what I said.

 

Your next paragraph doesn't work, because Naruto -specifies- why. He -says- it is Hinata that made him go ninetails. He does not say it was the village or everything else. He had given up, despite all of those things. No, seeing Hinata go down was the clarified spark. This instance is why it is not baseless or contradicting to say Naruto loved Hinata but did not know why. It is a valid theory with just the manga, and with the Last, it is the valid answer.

 

On your final part, it doesn't really have a real impact. It is a joke, and it's important really fades and is diminished after the moment ends.

 

Edit: Adding more with seeing more added:

 

Your generalization of NH is very off, and shows a lack of understanding of the bond. Now, what you want to do from a writing point of view is up to your opinion. But Kishimoto's choice is perfectly fine, and while underutilized, well executed.

 

No idea what you are talking about in your banana example, or how it relates to the previous paragraph at all.

 

Aswering this quick because you did it before I could finish.

 

>"You still don't understand contradiction. Here's the thing:

I decided NH at the end.

I decided NH at the beginning.

 

That's a contradiction.

 

I planned NH at the beginning.

I -decided- NH at the middle.

 

Is NOT a contradiction. Planned is the equivalent to the first draft.

Decided is equivalent to committing.

 

Do you understand now?"

 

I know what's the difference between planning and deciding. That's not the issue. He did say first it was that he planned it from the beggining. But he also said he set his mind on the beggining. Later, he said he decided on the middle, and then that he decided a while ago. That is contradiction.

 

>"Your point about the Manga and Movie is irrelevant, because they're both canon. This does not diminish the other material in anyway, particularly since Kishimoto approved of the script after a lot of red marking. Note he says it wasn't his idea originally, but he certainly edited and help cultivate the idea. But again, the Last's canon status is indisputable, and should not be thrown out. Further, you don't need the Last to justify NH, it's well established in the manga."

 

No, it's not irrelevant. Making them both canon doesn't fix the issue that I've stated. And yeah, you need it to justify NH, as how I said before there wasn't anything about them until they could be above 18. He even said, if there wasn't a NH love story, it would be unfair to readers to understand how they get together.

 

> "You'll also have to elaborate exactly what is coming across as fact. You're generalizing and not really pointing to anything in particular in your example, basically restating what I said."

 

So you didn't get that you are doing the same as you point out people are doing. Okay.

 

> "Your next paragraph doesn't work, because Naruto -specifies- why. He -says- it is Hinata that made him go ninetails. He does not say it was the village or everything else. He had given up, despite all of those things. No, seeing Hinata go down was the clarified spark. This instance is why it is not baseless or contradicting to say Naruto loved Hinata but did not know why. It is a valid theory with just the manga, and with the Last, it is the valid answer."

 

He said that after seeing her death he went Ninetails, he doesn't say "I went Ninetails only because of her" or "she was the only reason". This affirmation is a dissmissal of all what he could've been feeling during his battle. An emotional explotion has its triggers, but they never come from one thing. This is just psychology.

 

As for the higlighted text, I've already explained the issues between the manga and movie and won't repeat it. 

 

> "On your final part, it doesn't really have a real impact. It is a joke, and it's important really fades and is diminished after the moment ends."

 

Again, you are forgetting to see and take the situation into Narutoverse context and not only your lecture of the scenes. For us is a joke, but it is a real moment that happens to the characters and goes to their memories. Memories are an important part of any kind of bond.

 

> "Your generalization of NH is very off, and shows a lack of understanding of the bond. Now, what you want to do from a writing point of view is up to your opinion. But Kishimoto's choice is perfectly fine, and while underutilized, well executed."

 

I already established how Kishimoto's interviews do NOT contradict eachother. A contradiction would be saying that NH was planned from the end, then in another, that it was planned from the beginning. To say in a second that he also says he considered Sakura does not contradict anything, simply because it does not invalidate that NH was planned from the beginning. A contradiction -must- be an invalidation, it cannot be a statement that does not match character per character. This is a failure of not understanding what a contradiction is. Fact, by the way, as we're discussing contradiction. Saying that he considered something, while having something planned, is not an opposed element.

 

On the first part, you're misunderstanding the point. The point is some arguments are stronger than others, while others are what we call baseless. A solid argument has a foundation built on fact, a weaker argument does not. Essentially, you cannot as readily counter a solid argument with just air, while pure speculation will fall as it has no legs.

 

So yes, because the Last shows that Naruto did not understand his love for Hinata, we can make inferences, which stand on fact, within the Manga that this is so. That they also end up together in 700, that we see text that Naruto feels the worst feelings ever at her supposed demise in 437, are all foundations for supporting a statement that the Proud Failure Speech was an important progressive moment in NH. Often people dismiss what comes after, but it is important? Certainly the Proud Failure Speech is no less supported than what comes before. They all fit seamlessly here, and certainly this speech by the way, separates the bonds alone.

 

If you're looking for actual romance to show that they're a couple, you won't find any in the manga. The manga has zero romance, except 699 with Sasuke poking Sakura's forehead. That's it, really. If you want to find that, look in the Last. Mind, saying this, I don't want to fall into the place of saying any bond is more "special", it's simply that the bond as it was developed makes sense for NH to be endgame, which is really the crux of the argument. Thus why my statements are not going over and discussing and comparing otherw bonds of friendship.

 

Right, Good writing is about a lot of things, going to skip to the next part here, but I will repeat "Good" is subjective, as for each aspect of it has a weight that differs between reader, and further, each writing rule can be broken to "Good" or even "Great" effect.

 

You mis-state NH here, it's not one-sided admiration, but dual admiration. Naruto was awed by Hinata in her battle by Neji, by her speech before his fight with Neji, that she jumped in to save him in the Pain Arc, that she really got him out of it. There is this grave deep emotion that rises when Hinata is about, and it is this intense emotion, coupled with this admiration, that infers Love, that is love as confirmed by the Last. You ask why not just friends, and it is the intense deep emotions that really are why they are not just friends.

 

. NH maybe has one actual comical moment (When they first meet after three years), but NH, particularly none of the moments I listed above, don't play to comedy.

 

Your argument on NS doesn't really say -why- it should be more. Just because you are friends does not imply getting together. That said, I love their friendship, but any suggestion of it being more was quelled before the end.

 

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHHAHAHAHA After reading this, this might be my last message regarding this topic. Before answering to your text I have some other things so say: You declare you like logical reasoning but you fail SO much at it! The only thing you do is using pretty words and de-construction of ideas and definitions to support yourself when it reality you don't make sense It really is laughable. Either is that or you really, really don't understand what RiverKid or I have written, which I think it makes it excusable.

 

Nevertheless, I lean towards the former. Your subtle way of avoiding the central idea of a subject is either on purpose or an amateur failure. It may confuse others, but it makes me laugh. This is why I understand why other people don't want to waste their time discussing with you. 

 

I mean, I first listened to you. My POV was that NS made sense story-wise. You said NH made sense story wise. So I said, okay, let's listen to this, I'm ready to admit I was wrong if I was proven it was it, that's why I didn't even mentioned my opinion until later, but have done anything but prove it, just taking anything related to NH and highlighting it. 

 

From the moment I started discussing with you, you were not open-minded, nor ready to admit yourself wrong (and reformulate your argument) if the time would come. Which was already a warning for me. So, again, at least try to question yourself on why so many people get angry or annoyed at you. Of course, I do admit there are very emotional people here (as there would be anywhere), and that, well, this is a NS forum after all, there will be people that like NS over everything and won't listen to any reason that will contradict them, but besides them there are other users who also get annoyed at you after reading your argumentation and actually analyzing it.

 

Aaaanyway. Let us begin.

 

>"I already established how Kishimoto's interviews do NOT contradict eachother. A contradiction would be saying that NH was planned from the end, then in another, that it was planned from the beginning. To say in a second that he also says he considered Sakura does not contradict anything, simply because it does not invalidate that NH was planned from the beginning. A contradiction -must- be an invalidation, it cannot be a statement that does not match character per character. This is a failure of not understanding what a contradiction is. Fact, by the way, as we're discussing contradiction. Saying that he considered something, while having something planned, is not an opposed element."

 

You wrote

 

      - "The Manga Says Something (Fact), I speculate something based on this fact."

      - "A Reader Infers something (Opinion), they speculate based on that opinion, as if it was fact"

                    

                       Right?
                        You are trying to say which are the differences and what it makes an opinion to have more value (base) to be part of an argumentation. So you tried to separate it on                                          3 ways of constructing it. Facts are the Manga and what Kishimoto says, those are our sources. Just as any other person, you are a reader so you also infer from what it is                                 shown. 

 

                                              

                                   

                         What do we see here? Naruto rapping. That's a fact. He's sweating. That's a fact. Bee without words. That's a fact. Now, following your example. Let's speculate                                                  based on this fact: Naruto is nervous about rapping and Bee isn't surprised.  He has probably never rap before, based on his awkwardness and Bee thinks is bad rapping.

                         Speculating based on what it is shown it's the same as infering. We don't know if Naruto hasn't tried to rap before, maybe he is just very bad at it. So we really can't                                              prove this, that's why it's an opinion. Both of them, havn't rap before and being bad at it, are reasonable inferences. The problem comes when you take your inference as truth,                            thus saying "I'm pretty sure Naruto hasn't rap before!!!" or "No, Naruto is only very bad at it, I'm sure he has tried it at least once."

                         

                         So those 2 examples on constructing a valid opinion for argumentation it's in reality only one:

                         The Manga says something (Fact), I speculate, so I infer (Opinion), then 1. or I treat it as what it is (an opinion) or as truth (as it was a fact)

                         

                         You treat your inferences as if they were correct, when in reality they are only speculations, yet you try to differentiate it from what whatever other people say,

 

>"So yes, because the Last shows that Naruto did not understand his love for Hinata, we can make inferences, which stand on fact, within the Manga that this is so. That they also end up together in 700, that we see text that Naruto feels the worst feelings ever at her supposed demise in 437, are all foundations for supporting a statement that the Proud Failure Speech was an important progressive moment in NH. Often people dismiss what comes after, but it is important? Certainly the Proud Failure Speech is no less supported than what comes before. They all fit seamlessly here, and certainly this speech by the way, separates the bonds alone."

 

This is over-reading. The Manga and the Movie are different things, in first place. Why? Principally because the Manga was thought and made by Kishimoto, while the Movie was thought and made by Pierrot (just another readers with their very own interpretations) with only Kishimoto's assistance. And this that the movie was already being made when the last manga chapters where being written so the plot of the movie has to affect the latest manga chaps.

 

" In my head, I had decided Naruto and Hinata to get together a bit after they became young adults. But I couldn’t think of an actual love story for the two and was not planning on drawing it. However, I wanted to circle back to the first chapter (of the series) by making Naruto have a son who graffities on the (now) Hokage Naruto’s rock face. So the idea of a [NH] love story wasn’t my idea at the start, however Pierrot staff suggested the movie to revolve around it (hence the final product being the way it is)."

 

If your theory is that Kishimoto tried to develop love not understood by Naruto for Hinata on the manga and he supported this on the movie, this is right up denied by the fact he didn't thought of the story for them both in the movie. He was too "embarrassed" by his own words on another interview to do any romance on the manga or later, so he let Pierrot do it for him.

 

What he says is this: "I wanted them both to come together in the future, but there wasn't any romantic about them in the manga, since they would only fall in love after they are above 18."

 

The Proud Failure Speech is an important moment for Hinata. And the "worst he has ever felt" you are taking it as it came only for Hinata, deleting all the mess that was his life at that moment. I mean, you think his whole village being blown up has nothing to do with the intense reaction from Naruto? Psychologycally doesn't make sense. He was under too much stress. Not to mention chapters before he was having problems not to giving himself up to distress and Kurama. This was just the natural outcome. He reacted badly also when Sakura was in danger and gave himself to Kurama, thought she was able to calm him down. After that, his seal was breaking more and more while the plot progressed, so, again, it was only the logical outcome. He was yet to control his emotions.

 

If you really want to prove how NH makes sense, you need to take only under consideration all the chapters that weren't being published while the movie was being written and directed, insomuch as the Movie (Pierrot invention) influenced Kishimoto's writting. As RiverKid said, the movie was made to justify their love, and the chapters under this influence are a by-product.

 

The theory that Naruto has loved Hinata before the war even is baseless and contradicting to Kishimoto's statements.

 

>"If you're looking for actual romance to show that they're a couple, you won't find any in the manga. The manga has zero romance, except 699 with Sasuke poking Sakura's forehead. That's it, really. If you want to find that, look in the Last. Mind, saying this, I don't want to fall into the place of saying any bond is more "special", it's simply that the bond as it was developed makes sense for NH to be endgame, which is really the crux of the argument. Thus why my statements are not going over and discussing and comparing otherw bonds of friendship."

 

Again, the Movie is an explanation on how they fall in love. IN THE MOVIE. So it has anything to do with the manga. Literally they had to developt their romance precisely in the future for that reason. 

And about what it's highlighted I've said I've read your follow up "progression" of their bond. And still doesn't make sense, you were just describing what it happened and gave it more meaning, that doesn't prove a thing. It is important to compare other people's interactions to determinate which one makes more sense, so I don't know what you are talking about. While writting, just as in real life, love is constructed by shared experiences, similarities, mutual empathy, sexual appeal and mutual support. That's why from a writter point of view, the bonds as they were developt that made sense if they ended up together are 4: Narusaku, sasusaku, narusasu and sasukarin. So it doesn't matter if Kishimoto constructed their bond from a red-herring purpose (both NS and SK), what he did made the ships make sense. But to be honest, Sasuke should have died.

 

>"Right, Good writing is about a lot of things, going to skip to the next part here, but I will repeat "Good" is subjective, as for each aspect of it has a weight that differs between reader, and further, each writing rule can be broken to "Good" or even "Great" effect."

 

I think Riverkid has answered to this very well so if you don't get what he said, it's most likely that you are doing it on purpose. There are subjective matters on writting, whether you like it or not is not the same as saying something is well done. 

 

>"You mis-state NH here, it's not one-sided admiration, but dual admiration. Naruto was awed by Hinata in her battle by Neji, by her speech before his fight with Neji, that she jumped in to save him in the Pain Arc, that she really got him out of it. There is this grave deep emotion that rises when Hinata is about, and it is this intense emotion, coupled with this admiration, that infers Love, that is love as confirmed by the Last. You ask why not just friends, and it is the intense deep emotions that really are why they are not just friends."

 

I thought you might have problems with that specific thing, but I thought about it. Hinata admires Naruto and Naruto, on the situations you listed, was surprised about her will, is as much the situational admiration you can register Naruto having for way more characters. Like when he sees and blushes while Sakura is saving Gaara's brother, thought, the latter being implied romantic.

 

>"NH maybe has one actual comical moment (When they first meet after three years), but NH, particularly none of the moments I listed above, don't play to comedy."

 

Agree. Why is this, thought? This moment was implied romantic. The rest it isn't. When romance is involved it all ends up in comic relief, why? Kishimoto said he was too embarrassed on doing it. There has to be a punch line at the end. Even tho it was a comical situation, it has real impact on the characters since this is what happens in their world as we are just readers, thus incluencing on how things should play out in the future taking in consideration all that has happened between characters in Narutoverse. It's psychological supported this way.

 

>"Your argument on NS doesn't really say -why- it should be more. Just because you are friends does not imply getting together." 

 

I did not stated an argument, I asked, which makes more sense from the progression of their bonds, which NS does. Surely, friendship doesn't mean future love, at all. But, again, from a writter point of view I rather pair up a couple that has lived throught hell and developt friendship over battle and suffering over the years and have a mutual goal than someone who liked the other character but doesn't really know him deeply or for what he's going through, it's a bad match and if I was on a relationship like that I would be unhappy as hell.

 

>"That said, I love their friendship, but any suggestion of it being more was quelled before the end."

 

Again, aren't we discussing what makes sense? Then why, again, you bring up what it was made (the ending and chapters under the movie influence) instead. We are not talking of what it was suggested (by Kishimoto, thus intention), we are talking about their bond progression to make it understandable to get together (by what happens in their own world -of the characters, thus the product). Intention doesn't determinate a product.

 

Example #1: I ate a banana I found on the table.  

 

- Intention: Eat a banana.

- Reason: I'm hungry.

- Product: My mother gets angry because I ate the banana she was saving.

 

Example #2: I buy tickets for a concert to go with my best friend.

 

- Intention: Birthday present.

- Reason: I appreaciate our friendship.

- Product: My friend gets sad because I bought the tickets to the wrong concert.

 

Example #3: Kishimoto writes with (said) intention on NH being the end-game.

 

- Intention: Developing a bond between them to justify/support their love.

- Reason: Decided that way from the beggining/middle/quite some time ago, whichever is the truth and because Hinata has always looked over Naruto.

- Product: Writes and develops more NS and makes comparisons in purpose to the MinaKushi ship and Kushina in specific to mislead, giving enough base and weight for this couple                  to be a reasonable end-game.

 

Now, as I've said before writing most of this, I've realized that I might not answer you on this from now on. Mostly because I think you don't make sense and I've said what I had to say. So it's up to you to take into consideration anything of what I've said, instead of taking one word of an argumentation and taking it out of context or relying your argument on a definition instead of logical reasoning.

 

I'm out.

its amazing when bryke mentioned the comic would explore korrasami's relationship they weren't joking in the past i felt korrasami was forced and didn't get proper dvelopment but with the first part of this trilogy story me its made me jump on board to the ship because it delivered exactly what i needed from the show proper development i understand that with tv programming there is a limit but the pairing didn't scream out canon potential to me with comics you have more freedom and part 1 made me ship them good job bryke it took you 3 yrs but you finally convinced me

Ah, yeah, I saw that. But wasn't it obvious? Korrasami was canon. There were some Korra/Maco shippers that didn't want to believe it or took the ship as a sort of joke just because it's a lesbian couple.

 

Here's the difference in speculation:

 

Kishimoto says something (Fact), I speculate something based on this fact.

A Reader Infers something (Opinion), they speculate based on that opinion, as if it was fact.

The Manga Says Something (Fact), I speculate something based on this fact.

 

A and C are stronger forms of speculation than B. The problem with B is when we are treating it with fact. When I am speculating, I try to articulate it, as you highlight it above, even if it is referencing fact. So yes, there is speculation, the problem with some speculation, is its treated as fact, and that is where I point that out.

 

Particular to the educated guess part, the fact is we cannot determine the placement 100%, though I offered my own accurate guess.

Just to address the Neji/Shikamaru/Hinata stuff very simply, Hinata acknowledged Naruto from the start of the Chuunin Exams, understanding who he is while everyone else was learning. And Naruto in turn was cheering and marveled by who he saw Hinata was, pushing her on when others had thought it was done. This is really a moment of this sort of bond. For me it's very confusing how someone can think NH doesn't make sense, personally. Ignoring personal opinion of the pairing (I think it's a bit plain), it was quite evident.

 

Your two points are also odd:

1: Follow up on the Story Itself: Elaborate? Is this referencing actual points in the manga? Because I linked to a post that does this considerably.

2: Good Writing: This is subjective? Technically, you can write something badly, but it still make enough sense for an ending to come out.

The actual debate is if NH made sense, which precisely, is there evidence showing that these two make sense getting married together. And with 437 and 615 and the Chuunin Exam Arc, and bits before 615 where Naruto acknowledges Hinata saving him twice, seeing how Hinata felt just by looking at her eyes (Vice versa moment where Hinata can tell its the real Naruto by looking at his eyes. Extra mention that Neji couldn't do this).

 

It's not speculation that Naruto didn't understand this love. As a source of canon, the Last confirms it and puts that answer there. You'd have to dispute the Last as a source of canon, which, is a bit silly to do.

 

On NS, as I've talked about before, few and far between, if any, even, are there moments actually pushed forward seriously by one of the two protagonists, that isn't turned into comic relief, or isn't pushed by an outside character. 600-700 has zero legitimate NS moments.

 

I see now where people's opinion about you comes from.

 

Aaaanyway. Let's see.

 

>"The Manga Says Something (Fact), I speculate something based on this fact."

> A Reader Infers something (Opinion), they speculate based on that opinion, as if it was fact.

 

Ahhh, wait. Try to read that again. The manga says somethings, and its a fact, we agree? You and a second person are reading, thus both are readers, right? So, from what you read, you speculate, that's it's what is called infering, which is an opinion at the same level. So none of those are facts.

 

>"Kishimoto says something (Fact), I speculate something based on this fact."

>"The next part is speculation,"

> "The Proud Failure Speech is certainly a heart-booster that changes how Naruto thinks about her, and is certainly the root of an argument that Naruto did love her, but did not understand it sort of moment."

 

Explain me how is this based on a fact. 

Also, if you didn't read, we have the interviews posted above and it's shown where and how he contradicts himself about NH.

 

> "It's not speculation that Naruto didn't understand this love. As a source of canon, the Last confirms it and puts that answer there. You'd have to dispute the Last as a source of canon, which, is a bit silly to do."

 

In The Last happens two things: Naruto falls in love with Hinata and Naruto and Sakura's parting. The first one happens after he sees all what Hinata has thought and done while thinking on him and the second one happens when Sakura gives Naruto a speech on how she will always love Sasuke, which Naruto understands, and also Sakura giving a hand to Hinata who has always liked him.

 

Naruto did not love, but cared about Hinata when he noticed her. It was stated by Kishimoto that he fell in love with her IN the movie and not before. He said he was planning NH to be the end-game but never said Naruto had any sort of romantic feelings towards her. This is just over-reading. And it's actually proved the contrary of what you state.

 

1. Yes. It didnt prove nothing. And I asked a comparison with Hinata's, Neji's, Shikamaru's and Sakura's bond with Naruto. Why? to see the differences and similarities. Starting from this base, we are yet to say if a bond is significantly more special (which is important to establish a couple from an autor POV).

 

2. "This is subjective? Technically, you can write something badly, but it still make enough sense for an ending to come out."

Yeah, you said the same I did, just writing the other option which I also implied: "for much an autor wanted to disclose a thing in certain way, it won't mean, at all, that A. was made correctly; B. makes sense (...) on the way he constructed the story."  Which also means that he can write something badly but the end was to be expected and made sense.

 

Good writing isn't just about orthography or literal resources used correctly, good writing is also about how he constructed the story bit by bit, development and characters interactions for something to be a more fitting, understandable, realistic and fullfiling way to end a story.

 

I'll use an example: Have you watched Scott Pilgrim vs the World? Scott ends up with Ramona, but everyone involved agreed that he should have ended with Knives, given the movie's structure (not the books, because there the story is other). I do not ship them, but I do see how it works, again, in the movie. There was even an alternative ending to because of it.

 

NH is a ship that develops through similiraties (the underdog story), one-sided admiration first and recognition of bravery later. Finishing it in not falling in love until they are above 18, as how Kishimoto said he wanted. On the other hand, NS is a ship that went from the annoyed-sense to understanding and recognition to friendship and comradeship. Please, tell me which one fits more a correct way to depict the development of a romantic bond, thus giving a strong point for it to make sense?

 

>"On NS, as I've talked about before, few and far between, if any, even, are there moments actually pushed forward seriously by one of the two protagonists, that isn't turned into comic relief, or isn't pushed by an outside character. 600-700 has zero legitimate NS moments."

 

Ending a scene in a punch-line (comic relief) doesn't mean necessarily for it to serve only to this purpose. By the same means, NH has also served as comic relief or interrupted, but it has had its serious moments just as how NS did. Exactly as how you said before about NH, take Sakura out of the picture from several scenes and Naruto is dead or unsuccessful. So how one makes more sense than the other if both can fall into the same tags at some point? For it you have to see the weight of their relationship. Most moments between NS its always tagged under the "best friend forever" label, so why would any of NH's moments should be romantic foreshadowing and not a friendship bond?

 

See, my issue here is that whether you claim to be impartial, you seem to interpretate some scenes as "meant to be this way", just as how any fan would do, but you do it in favor of the ending and most what it comes with it. While I debate on how, for me, NS makes more sense whether was or not meant to be an end-game.

 

Good find! 
 

Now combine that with all the other interviews and it's pretty clear this man has been lying his @ss about this issue for quite a while now.

Indeed. Not to forget this one.

 

 

Interviewer::最終話では、ヒナタとの間に2人の子供がいることが示唆されましたが、ヒナタとナルトが結婚する未来はいつ頃固まったのでしょうか。

Interviewer:: Saishu hanashi de ha, hinata tono ma ni 2 hito no kodomo ga iru koto ga shisasaremakittena ga, hinata to naruto ga kekkon suru mirai ha itsugoro katamatta no deshou ka?

Kishimoto::かなり前からヒナタで決めていました。サクラにしようかと迷った時期もあったのですが、ここへ来てサクラがナルトに心変わりしたら、さすがにサクラはひどい女過ぎでしょう（笑う）。　それに、実際サクラはなんだかんだでサスケに対して一途なんだと思います

Kishimoto::  KANARI mae kara hinata de kimeteimakittena.  sakura ni shiyouka to MAYOTTA jiki mo atta no desuga, koko he kite sakura ga naruto ni kokoro kawarikittenara, sasuga ni sakura ha hidoi
 sugi deshou(laugh). SORE NI, JISSAI SAKURA ha NANDAKANDA de sasuke ni taikittene ichizu NANDA to OMOIMASU.

You had the NaruHina person translated it as such….

“I decided quite a while ago to go with Hinata.
There was a time when I was on the fence about going with Sakura, but after coming this far and just having Sakura switch over to loving Naruto would make her kind of a terrible woman.
Anyway, Sakura really has always just been wholeheartedly about Sasuke.”

Right?

I translate it as such.  You have to really take it in context.

Interviewer::  In the last story, there is a part where small kid  hinata and naruto being suggested(or hinted out in a trailer).  May I know WHEN WAS IT THAT YOU FIRM, FIRM MAKE the decision that hinata marry naruto in the future?

Kishimoto:: Well, QUITE SOME TIME AGO, I have decided (Naruto to marry) with Hinata.  Even though, Sakura had HER MOMENTS OF WAVERING(confused, hearts divided), (not Kishimoto were thinking twice about it, whether to put Hinata or Sakura as Naruto’s wife), for Sakura to come to that part (of marrying Naruto), she would have to change her heart and that would make her a VERY, VERY cruel woman, no?  Besides/moreover, THE PRACTICAL SAKURA has been always CONSIDERATE (been thinking, if you must) to Sasuke, IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.

Now….do I think my translation is correct?

a) KANARI:: which means / CONSIDERABLY / FAIRLY / QUITE . 
http://jisho.org/wor...edict&romaji=on

Kishimoto NEVER SAID that he had considered FOR A VERY LONG TIME AGO.

b) MAYOTTA is the past tense for Mayou, 迷う, and Mayou means, 'TO HAVE TWO HEARTS, TO BE DIVIDED’
http://jisho.org/wor...edict&romaji=on

So yes, KISHIMOTO ADMITTED THAT THERE WERE TIMES HE DID MAKE SAKURA THINK TWICE IN HER RELATIONSHIP WITH NARUTO AND SASUKE.

My opinion,…..Kishimoto said, 'To Come To This Stage’, Kishimoto was referring to ’To come to the stage of Sakura marrying Naruto, like how the question was referring to Hinata marrying Naruto’, Kishimoto think that Sakura would be a very cruel woman if she decided to change her heart and go after Naruto.  Kishimoto was referring not to Sakura giving a chance to herself and Naruto as being a very cruel woman, Kishimoto was referring the fact that if Sakura were to decide to change her hearts towards Naruto, Sakura would be very cruel to Hinata and to some extend Naruto.  That’s why Kishimoto said Sakura must get Sasuke.

Sore ni, means 'MoreOver, Besides’.

JISSAI SAKURA…..jissai refers to 'practical, come to reality’.  So, with JISSAI Sakura, it means Sakura is a practical girl.
http://jisho.org/wor...eng=&dict=edict

…..Has Always Been Thinking Of Sasuke.

Now, there is no words of 'love Sasuke’ in Sakura’s term.  Kishimoto used the term 'to omoimasu’ which means 'to think’, but given in context NANDAKANDA and NANDA TO OMOIMASU, it appears to me that what Kishimoto was saying, that the 'Practical Sakura has always been in 'ONE WAY OR ANOTHER’ give consideration to Sasuke’s plight.
http://jisho.org/wor...eng=&dict=edict

http://dictionary.go.../m0u/なんだ/

 

Like I said, debating with this person is kittening pointless cause she is a hypocrite. She runs her mouth insulting our  arguments calling it speculation, misreadings, ignorance of the actual events and yada yada yada and when we ask her for scans to back up her "logical" claims, all she does is fire back with her own personal opinion which to me and probably to most people here right now is worth as much as a steaming pile of horse kitten.

Since this is the first time I've asked her for proofs, I yet have nothing so said about it.

 

But half the ideas you point out aren't ideas. It's you really, really over-reading that there is an idea here.

 

**** It is when the author introduces ideas with no intent on following through with them. This manga does that . . . A LOT.

Overthinking is entirely a reader's fault, and of no blame of an authors.

 

**** If what Analyzer said about Kishimoto saying NH was thought from the beginning it's true then NS was a big red-herring. Tho, recognising it as red-herring is also admiting how deceiving NS has been and completely understandable for any person to thought about it becoming canon.

 

All of this you said people do, you also do. I'll show you highlighting words in your latest post:

 

 

Number 2: Whether or not he planned them from the beginning really is solely provably by his own words (Which he says). You can then use the material to discuss at what point this occured, be it at their introduction, the end of part one, the middle, etc. I do believe he meant for these to be together at their introductions, but he was sold on keeping it they way he intended at the middle. Someone discussed how Kishimoto keeps himself flexible, allowing multiple options (I.E., NS), but when he was toying with NS, which a lot of us feel was the beginning of part 2, for him it didn't work, thus this revert to what he was doing originally, as such, the Pain Arc, and really the Itachi Pursuit Arc, as it is. Of course, without him confirming, its at best an educated guess, so its free to debate the exact points of the beginning and middle that this thinking of his occurred.

 

It's note worthing that the run towards of Sakura and Karin (Notably Gaara brought Naruto to Sakura), that they are both healers of their respective teams, Sasuke's new Team, and the New Team 7.If these two cannot heal them, then things are bad. I don't really see this as a Red Herring shipping moment myself, but it might have been colored that way to mislead as well. Shikmaru and Neji were obviously not meant as romantic interests, their moments were never colored that way. I'm not sure about this making sacrifices to get noticed, as her point of making sacrifices is about love, not acknowledgement.

 

The next part is speculation, do we state this is when the Author planned it to be that way (Chuunin Exams, speculated), or when they were decided on it (Thus the Pain Arc, speculated). The Proud Failure Speech is certainly a heart-booster that changes how Naruto thinks about her, and is certainly the root of an argument that Naruto did love her, but did not understand it sort of moment. The Pain Arc is another, where Hinata futilely goes to save him, out of love, and because of that failure, Naruto feels the worst he's ever had, and just gives in to Kurama, he doesn't care anymore. Either one of these could be it, but really, its speculation, as in the answer to the question really, is when the Author decides it in his mind.

 

I'll never state a bond is over another's, or that they are heavier than another's. The Entire Team 7 execution is flawed, perhaps because it was Editor and time constraint pressure when Kishimoto was first starting, and it never really gets much build up to show how Naruto and Sasuke were these great friends exactly beyond it being informed usually. Notably the Naruto Sakura part of this triangle suffers the least (But it still suffers from being informed, mind), in part because they are often working together. You can certainly speculate part two's beginning as it is was Kishimoto  considering it, however.

 

SS makes sense because it was informed, and it was shown that was it was going to, in mostly in informed fashion. No other Sasuke X or Sakura X pairing has a foundation, really. We can discuss how it's not really well executed (Certainly up for debate!). NH was more displayed, a play to its narrative strength. It definitely makes sense.

 

His interviews really aren't contradictory, as they are saying the same thing. I think we can sum up the gist of them pretty simply:

 

I planned NH and SS from the beginning, but was opening to exploring other options, thought about NS for a little while, but decided on what I was doing in the middle. I did play with some Red Herring of Sakura with Naruto (Thus the chapters after the middle), but it was always about Naruto and Hanta getting together in the end.

 

There isn't any contradiction to this narrative. It would rely on something above not being true in a second statement.

 

I believe Relevant interviews are the 2014, 2017, and post Gaiden Interview where he talks about SS being planned at the start.

 

" I do believe he meant for these to be together at their introductions, but he was sold on keeping it they way he intended at the middle."

Speculated. And since this is a speculation, your theory has as much value as anyone here saying it wasn't. Thus, not really giving you a reason to try and contradict or "correct" someone that states it.

 

"without him confirming, its at best an educated guess, so its free to debate the exact points of the beginning and middle that this thinking of his occurred."

@Analyzer

Okay, I've read most of it. I'm too lazy and you write a lot, lmfao. Well, I'll first begin to say there are two principal points to discuss:

1. Does NH and SS make sense narrative-wise?

2. Did Kishimoto planned NH and SS from the beggining?

 

Those two points have nothing to do with each other, so they shouldn't be mixed up. Kishi could have planned any couple and execute it as poorly not to make sense. Agree on that?

 

1. I read of what you had to say about NH development. I agree on that there were not romantic development for any of the characters. But there was romantic implications from character A to B all over the manga. All of those times one-sided or what we know as paralelism (like when Sakura and what was the name of the red-head?   ran towards practically-dead Naruto and Sasuke respectively).

BUT I do not agree nor I see logic on your arguments over NH development meant to be a romantic one. All I see and that is a fact is that she, as you declared, isn't irrelevant. But that's actually all, there isn't anything special about their bond, to say, at much should be in the same line that Neji or Shikamaru (even when way more weight). Those two characters, just as Hinata, had their moments with only Naruto in intense situations. Were they also meant to be a possible romantic interest?  Hinata's relevance has always hang around making Naruto shine, as a lot of characters have fallen on at their respective moment. She's the typical kind-hearted shy girl that has a crush on the protagonist and will make sacrifices to get noticed. Of course there will be moments where Naruto should actually notice her (senpaaaai, kyaaaa  ) 

 

So, my thought is this. If you actually think there is any romantic development for anyone, which I agree, where do you get that NH was meant, narrative-wise, to be end-game? To prove this, there should be something special about NH, which there really isn't. As how I say there is as much relevance than Neji or Shikamaru. 

 

On another note, you say NS belongs to fanon. I won't question your love for NS since it doesn't matter, we are talking about what makes sense, aren't we? NS bond development is heavier and as special as Naruto's and Sasuke, based on decision-making moments, those two bonds are over Neji's, Shikamaru's and Hinata's with Naruto, or can you prove me wrong? Even if we can agree that Naruto and Sasuke's bond is only mouth-to-mouth, story-wise its only existence has affected the entire plot all over the manga.

 

So, please, tell me, how does NH and SS make sense again? I read about what yousaid about SS. If Sakura didn't end up with Naruto it would half-make sense for her to end up with Sasuke, that is if she had not make any personality growth, which I thought he had, but at the end didn't.

 

2. As for this point...well, as I've said before I don't really care about this. Mostly because any affirmation about this doesn't have enough proof to support it so I think about it as a waste of time as a whole. We can still discuss about it, recognising the subjetivity involving it. Why do I say this? Well, it's pretty obvious, isn't it?  There are two options: He planned NH and SS as end-game or he didn't. His first affirmation regarding this topic was made after the ending. I do not recall exactly the moment he refered when doing it so you gotta pardon me. He said something close to "I thought about NH and SS being the end-game after The Confession." Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was from this time or I believe the begginingof the war? that he realized he wanted to do this. So, by his own words defending the pairings, it was not always planned. Also if I recall correctly he also talked about how he did thought on making NS canon up until he turned to NH & SS. Also, adding the very controversial lines: "Besides, Sakura would be much terrible of a woman if she moved on."

 

Since I left this site not so long after the movie was released, please enlight me on where he said NH and SS were end-game all along. Probably would an interview after the one I've mentioned. Which makes his affirmations contradictory, thus not a reliable source for stablishing what it is a fact or not.

 

Get what I mean when I say this topic in particular is not worth discussing? Kishimoto really contradicts himself all over his interviews so I only get tired, to be honest.

 

 

Khaleesi, You need strong people like (R+L=J) and Ser Jorah Mormont at your side if you're going to battle this crazed beast!

Philip (if you know him) it's my Jorah! Heheh.

 

 

Off-Topic: Have any NS fans given the Rise of the Rokudaime Hokage a read?

"Disclaimer: I do not own Naruto, unfortunately."

 

Okay, I laughed.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Finally, a thread I Will be very invested on.
I feel Rick so much. I miss him! The last season ending was so sad.
And about Mr. Pickles I was first confused about his existence but since Rick jumps through different time-lines it's alright I guess.