Ok, still working on the tropes one. It's just a drag to go through every single issue to look for stuff. I'm up to an issue in the 50's... I think. This bit is gonna look at the famous Forest of Death Scene (Sakura/Sasuke) and the Heaven and Earth Scene (Sakura/Naruto).

However first I'm gonna address something that truly annoys the piss outta me when reading fanfiction and when discussing the nature of pairings with people.

Suffixes

Suffixes in Japanese culture(-san, -sama, -kun, etc.) are effectively similar to titles such as Dr., Mr., Mrs., Master, etc. in Western culture. The only one of these that doesn't fit that mold is the suffix -chan which is more similar to a knickname or generic aphorism such as cutey, honey, muffin, etc. in American. Granted that is a very very crude but still applies.

Now, the suffixes are assigned a ranking based upon how they applied, with -sama being the most important. In Japanese culture, the suffix -kun is applied to a young/er male of perceived approximate rank socially with the speaker. Whereas, -san is applied to a full grown adult. This delineation is seen in the western titles of Master and Mister(Mr.) or Miss(Ms.) and Misses(Mrs.).

Further closeness/familiarity with the subject can be seen in whether or not the family name or given name is used. The difference between Uzumaki-san and Naruto-san. With that stated, this is how the naming convention would be applied to Senju Tsunade: (from most formal to least)

Hokage-sama
Senju-sama / if familiar Tsunade-sama
Senju-san / if familiar Tsunade-san
if subject was male (Tsunade-kun)
Tsunade
Tsunade-chan/ Tsunade-baachan
Tsunade-teme (this is so informal it's insulting, such as calling someone and reffering to them as Jackass, a**hole, or b*tch)

Note that the inclusion and use of these titles is important in Japanese culture and someone is considered disrespectful if they are not used. Disrespect is a huge no no in Japanese culture and one of their huge gaffes (which is why Naruto is punished affectionately when he doesn't use the titles or refers to Tsunade as baa-chan). Typically the only people who someone wouldn't refer to with a title are spouse, VERY close friends, and siblings.

Ok, so why is this important?

Because titles create space and distance between the speaker and the person being referred to. Which is why people will often say "Don't call me blank, Call me blank2" in order to create closeness. This is reinforced by dialogue Kishimoto himself wrote about the titles, refer to the section where Sai discusses titles in Issue 311.

So by imposing these titles, you are creating a distance between yourself and the other person. By maintaining the titles, you are maintaining the distance between you and the subject. So by looking at this, There is an implied distance between her and Sasuke that is not implied between her and Naruto. This is also replicated by the relationship between Hinata and Naruto (as well as everyone else). The initial lack of title represented either lack of respect or familiarity with Naruto and the current lack of a title represents closeness and friendship, a shared bond. That's much better than Sasuke is doing.

Now, there is also not much use of titles within the Konoha 11 due to their closeness as comrades. So we can't read too much into it.

Two other subjects covered in this part of the post:

First, If people want to use the splash pages/covers for support of a pairing and the argument that either Naruto/Hinata or Sasuke/Sakura is still supported, simply point them to the very first splash page. This is the first time any of the "main four" characters are seen. Naruto occupies the majority of the two page spread and is the foreground being breathed out of a Giant Frog's pipe smoke. Sasuke is shown alone in the upper left astride a giant hawk. Where are Sakura and Kakashi you ask? Oh, Sakura is seen, two issues before she appears, in a giant frog's kimono flap staring at Naruto with a bit of a blush. Kakashi is seen looking at Naruto with a bored expression on his face on top of the Giant Frog. The frog/toad of course being one of the two animals that Naruto is very closely identified with through out the manga.

Okay, now I'll wait quietly while you go check that out...

Done? ok let's move on

Second, Sakura in her pre-fangirl phase has short hair. May be that this is important, may be it's not. I would personally consider the haircut combined with the decision to protect the boys as a step out of her fan-girl phase. In fact, the part before that are littered with Fan-girling and inner sakura moments. Compared with the sections after there are very little with the moments going down almost exponentially to the current state where there has only been one (she's terrified of Tsunade)

ok, taking a break. Will post bridge and forest of death analysis later tonight, just need to put my thoughts into sentences and paragraphs from my notes and type it up.

Edit: It's going up tomorrow. tired, need sleep

Basically, I'm looking to examine the numerous anime "tropes" within the Anime of Naruto with regards to the Naruto/Sakura Dynamic.

The first and most irritating one from the view of Naruto/Sakura fans is the argument that Sakura is abusive. Note that often in an anime a male and female character and their closeness is defined by physical reprimands when the male does something stupid or perverted. This is seen again and again in anime after anime that is comedic. The "abuse" is not intended to be mean or hateful and is, in fact, intended to be educational as the male is seen as being dense and unresponsive to more subtle clues. These actions do not cause any permanent damage to either the male or the relationship between the two.

If there were ever a case for this method being used upon a person, it would be Naruto. I will openly admit that I do not consider him to be stupid just incredibly dense at times. He's far too creative, sensitive, and quick on the uptake with some things to be stupid, but thats another essay. The manga casts him as incredibly dense when it comes to how to interact with people and knowing the proper way to deal with things socially. This is especially important in a highly social and contextual environment such as Japan.

Let's examine the nature of this "abusive" relationship by going through the scenes where she could be cast as abusive.

The first scene we see her acting this way is Issue 3. In fact, there are 3 seperate times where she mistreats Naruto in this issue. The first scene is where she orders him to move because she wants to sit next to him and then literally runs over Naruto to get to Sasuke. The second is where she beats him into the ground for the accidental kiss and the third is the famous henge/bench scene where she calls him a nuisance and lucky for not having parents. Following this she is quickly admonished by Sasuke and feels regret. These scenes are establishing the ground work for the relationship in the future and showing how Sakura initially feels about Naruto. In short, she is cruel and insensitive in these scenes.

The next scene where she either admonishes him for a stupid decision is Issue 10. Naruto has just stabbed himself in the hand with a Kunai. She asks if he's a masochist in what would be a most likely condescending tone. This is replicated again an issue later when he's almost impaled a bunny on a kunai "by accident" and she yells at him. These are both in response to Naruto making a stupid decision and a bad result coming about because of it.

Note: The scene with the bunny is one that makes me think Naruto is smarter and more perceptive than he seems. He, not Kakashi, notices the other Jounin first.

Issue 13, Naruto is admonished again. This time for challenging a jounin and charging straight at him. Considering that this jounin had neutralized Kakashi, this was another stupid decision.

Ok, here's the thing. Anytime, she admonishes Naruto for something other than what he deserves it for, she is shown the errors of her ways. Basically, anytime she lacks confidence in Naruto he does something unexpected.

Ahhh... geez this is taking forever. I need to take a break, I'll have a bunch more up but most of these events are similar.

Ok, gotcha. Because it's Anime Cliches, you all may get a two for one because I don't think there's enough there to truly satisfy the amount I want to write

Well, I don't really think it as a decrease because it's not there. More because of the change in focus of the Manga for the last 9 months or so. It'll get there eventually of that I have no doubts. Plus we have a Sakura and Kakashi heavy arc coming up, that should be good

I have left this thread for far too long. I promise this weekend I will put together an "essay". What topic would you like me look at?

Anime Cliches, The Sannin parallels, or Sakura's acceptance of Naruto (This will probably be very similar to Miz's work)

If you don't pick one, I'm probably gonna look at the Sannin stuff.

By Jerk-off, I meant idiot or someone who's incompetent.

I express my support for drumma's post, the hints are there we just need to see them

I don't think that Kakashi is as immature as everyone thinks. The level of respect everyone else has for him including ninja from other nation is too much for him to be a complete jerk-off. He's much more of a crouching moron, hidden badass than anyone gives him credit for.

Yea, but the parent's death don't mean anything to us as an audience because we have no link to them other than through one of the characters. Therefore, the impact is lessened.

Compare the impact that the death of Tsunade would create to the parents, there's no contest. Tsunade has links to several of the main characters (Naruto, Sakura, and Jiraiya) and is the current leader of the village that will soon be under attack. A village, which let me remind you, has a history of leaders who sacrifice their lives to protect the village from strong threats.

We also have the foreshadowing in several Chapters where she states openly that she's willing to give her life for the village. That opens the way for major growth of TWO characters. The first is Sakura, she would become the leading Medic-Nin in Konoha She would also have to deal with loss and her own path towards becoming adult. The second is Kakashi, who although an adult, is still greatly affected by the loss and subsequent guilt from Obito's death. By forcing responsibility and change on him, you force him to grow and adapt. Supporting these ideas we have foreshadowing and Kishimoto's own comments.

As for the respective strengths of the Sannin, personally I think they are all equal. If we use the current Team 7 and extrapolate backwards based on their respective younger versions, then we can come to the following conclusions:

Technically, with the largest skill-set, and the most perfect use of those skill-sets: Orochimaru (Sasuke) has the advantage, then Tsunade (Sakura), then Jiraiya(Naruto)

Pure Physical power: Its the girl, followed by the loser, then the Genius

And Technique power: Loser, Genius, Girl

But here's where it gets messy... Orochimaru lacks the ability to sacrifice and grow for others, whereas Tsunade and Jiraiya have shown that ability in spades. This is why if the two were ever in a fight against Orochimaru with something important, such as others, at stake they would win hands down.

Jiraiya couldn't stop Orochimaru from leaving because they fought each other to a stand still, like the Sasuke/Naruto fight in the Valley of the End.

So in summary...

Tsunade's death makes sense structurally within the story, emotionally, and purposefully.

I'd love to learn about Kakashi's relationship with his mentor and how that might have affected his relationship with Naruto, aka The Kyuubi attack (Kakashi age -12 yrs puts him at something like early to mid teens right?). I think we will also learn about Rin and how guilty Kakashi truly feels about Obito, Rin, his Sensei, Sensei's wife, Naruto, etc. The man seems to be extraordinarily guilt ridden and we might see some growth out of that. Oh and through that we may learn about Kushina.

I would also love to see him become the Rokudaime (which was hinted at during the Jiraiya/Tsunade conversation regarding Naruto, Minato, and Kushina)

I apologize if I should have tagged anything

I'll admit that he'll never become someone who has a good existence within the manga. He's made far too many poor decisions for that to happen (which is one of the reasons why his character annoys me so damned much), but I can't see the character not being redeemed even with the darker tone that the series has taken recently.

The structure of the Manga and story is such that he'll be redeemed (although he may die following redemption). If not then Team 7 just becomes another Sannin in truth not a Sannin 2.0: the win version.

Naruto won't become Hokage ("How can I be Hokage if I can't even save my friend") and Sakura will most likely remain in limbo. Ultimately, Naruto/Sakura is hindered by the lack of Sasuke because Naruto is just a little too honest/honorable to make a move on Sakura while he thinks she still likes Sasuke for them to get a relationship. Add in the fact that it will seem like Naruto would be a consolation prize rather than her first choice for a partner because Sasuke never came back and we get a wholly unsatisfying ending.

The fundamental flaw/failing/unknown of this argument is that we do not know how Sakura will respond when Sasuke finally does realize he needs others. In short, we don't know whether she'll continue down the path with Naruto or go back with Sasuke.

Also, This thought just hit me in the car on the way to work... By feeding someone you are acknowledging that you want and need them within your world. You are effectively providing them with one of the things needed to keep living. This seems to me to be a bit of the will of fire boiled down into an everyday occurrence.

True, I called it fail because if you look at it from a pro Naruto/Sakura POV it is... kinda (nothing happened and nothing was absolutely confirmed). This particular essay was only to analyze the specifics of the feeding, NOT the specifics of anime cliches. I'll get to that one eventually.


Oh, Note: Sakura as shown in the manga DOES NOT know that the FRS can stop Naruto's ability to draw chakra out. She was not present when Tsunade said this to Kakashi and Yamato. So no one can use this as an example of her not caring

I guess this would go here... Hi all I'm new. I had to write this because its been rattling around in my head for about a week. Please rip this apart and I will fix. Any and all arguments throw em out there. The idea is create a bunch of these examining several events such as the Promise of a Lifetime/Sasuke Leaving scene, the CS/KN4 scenes, structure of the manga, plot, etc. within the context of each other and Naruto/Sakura. Basically, I'm working to go through the plot and show why Sasuke/Sakura is full of fail and why Naruto/Sakura suceeds.

Examination of the Feeding Scene(s) (Issues 008,173-175, 343)

Ok, what this seeks to do is to analyze the various feeding scenes within the manga that we have seen so far. First, I need to state bias as that will ultimately affect how I view the scenes. That being said my bias viewing these scenes is that I’m a fairly passionate Naruto/Sakura shipper and not a big fan of Sasuke within the manga. To further clarify, I understand and enjoy the way that Sasuke is used to counterpoint Naruto and their parallel growth. I also greatly enjoy interactions between the two characters as they seem to be natural friendly rivals/close friends. However, I am greatly angered by the very nature of the character, which is a good thing as that seems to be the objective at this point within the story. If a point of mine can be either refuted or well argued against enough I plan to either add it to this “essay” or try to argue against it.

First, let’s discuss the nature of feeding someone and the implications outside the manga. Most often those who are fed by another are incapable of doing themselves whether they be injured, too young ( or old). The first image that pops into my mind when I picture feeding is a Mother feeding a child, an act of caring and love. This would carry through to the other examples of someone being injured or too old to feed themselves. These are all acts of caring from the feeder to the recipient, especially if it is not a job. Even if it is a job, there is often a level of care and personal attachment that develops. This occurs because you are in essence helping someone do an action that continues their lifespan and should improve their general overall health; it might also alleviate a pain of sorts (hunger).

The person who is being fed must put a certain level of trust into the interaction because you are trusting the person not to do a couple of things including not embarrass you (if the feeding is public), poke you with sharp implements, and possible poison you (worst case). You are also acknowledging that you are unable to do something basic for yourself. By acknowledging this event, you are partially labeling yourself an invalid and admitting that you must rely upon others for subsistence. You are acknowledging weakness. There is also a high degree of physical closeness and high likelihood of touching. This means that you also have to allow this person to perhaps physically touch you as well as near a very sensitive portion of your body. So ultimately the act of one person feeding someone is NECESSARILY intimate.

Now let’s focus on the idea of two people who aren’t in the situations above, using a situation between a male and female who are unrelated (by blood). This is where we see the situation in the mangas begin. As I have previously laid out, feeding someone is necessarily an intimate act. Using this idea as a basis let’s examine the act in the light of culture. Studies have shown that there is a link between food sharing and sexual intimacy. When American College students were surveyed regarding what the perceived nature of a relationship was when one person was sharing food with another they were given three choices :

(1) simple sharing, such as passing a dish; (2) feeding the partner from his or her plate by hand or utensil; or (3) offering food from which one has already taken a bite or lick.

The results showed that:

“Those who practiced "simple sharing" were perceived as nonsexual friends; the couples who either fed each other or exchanged already sampled food were perceived as sexually involved. Across cultures, offering and accepting food that has already been eaten or licked (like an ice cream cone), meaning that it is potentially "contaminated" by saliva and germs, is often perceived as limited to people who are intimately related.”

Note: Full Paper - http://www.sscnet.uc...haring_1998.pdf Summary -
http://www.answers.c...ic/sex-and-food

Food in this case represents a degree of physical intimacy that is expected to lead to a higher levels intimacy. And this is in Western culture which is stereotypically more emotional regarding intense feeling of love and displays of affection that Japanese culture. Moving on, there are numerous instances of the act of sharing food or feeding another has been sexualized within media. Some of the more famous scenes are from movies such as Top Gun, Wildthings (alcohol but still), Varsity Blues, Flashdance, Like Water for Chocolate to name a few.


Now, the important part… the actual text in question, the MANGA. To obtain how the author intends us to view these scenes, we must look at them within the context provided for the author and that means to examine all of the scenes between the characters and the proffering of food

The first scene occurs 8 issues in. In issue 8, Team 7 have been reprimanded and told that they shouldn’t be ninja by their sensei because they have failed to get the bells from him. He also states that they each failed in several other aspects of what is supposed to be a ninja’s basic skill set. He faults Naruto for failing to hide and for not looking “underneath the underneath”, Sakura is told that she focuses on Sasuke too much and ignores Naruto to her own detriment and Sasuke is chastised for failing to work with his teammates thinking that they would only slow him down*cough**cough*. The two bento boxes go to the less out and out failures (and the ones who didn’t try to cheat) of Sasuke and Sakura. While Naruto is tied to the post for his failures, Sasuke realizes that he needs to others so that he can achieve his mission and offers his food with no flair to Naruto so that he can eat. Sakura, afraid of failing due to Kakashi’s order not to feed Naruto, questions the wisdom of the decision. Sasuke effectively responds that it’s ok because they won’t get caught and that they need him anyway. Sakura blushes, thinks it over and then promptly offers her food to Naruto. What’s important about this interaction? Well first is the offer of the food between the group. Sasuke sees it in purely logical terms whereas Sakura and Naruto see the offering as something more as seen by the blush on both their faces (Page 13- Panels 3, 4, 7, 8) In my opinion, for Naruto it represents acceptance for him by his new teammates and a justification of his worth. For Sakura, it’s most likely a sense of embarrassment from the conversation in Chapter 3. Also, that the offering of Sakura’s food is head down, arms extended with the bento box being lifted above her (Same page – Panel 6). As far as my understanding, this is an offering of apology within Japanese culture; so in essence, she is trying to start to make up for her comments and behaviors. This moment is used to solidify the nature of their teamwork as the next time we see them all together working towards an objective is the capture of Tora-chan.

The next feeding scene we get between the characters is not until much later. The beginning of the scene is in issue 173 and is spread across the next two (174 and 175). The beginning of the scene is on Page 13 – Panel 6. We are shown Sakura sitting as Sasuke’s bedside busily working on something, which we quickly learn is an Apple. We see the care that she is putting into meticulously peeling the skin from the Apple and we hear her thoughts of “Yep, I did it this time… Sliced them nice and small” with a smile on her face. She is obviously incredibly happy with herself that she could help Sasuke like this without any interference. As soon as she offers the Apple to Sasuke again with a smile… and a blush, he smacks them away with a look of fury. Note that the offer is made head up and looking in the face, so something that shows a level of expectation and hope. Part of this is because of his thoughts of the time, about Naruto’s new found strength and his apparent lack thereof, and part may link back to a comment I made earlier about accepting this food may be construed as a sign of weakness. Sakura’s reaction is confusion and what seems to be some anger (IMO Page 17 – Panel 4). The next part of the scene we are treated to is in issue 174, Page 13 – Panels 4, 5, 6. The scene opens on Sasuke staring out the window and Sakura looking down at the Apples on the floor. A heated exchange follows with Sakura being left out except for some reactions which can be construed as confusion, anger, helplessness and desperation. The Apples are next seen in issue 175, Page 2 – Panel 6. In this scene they are smashed without thought or regard, No apology is offered or demanded. Sakura is left staring at the Apples and thinking about Sasuke’s cursed seal and Orochimaru (Page 3 – Panels 1-4). This is important for several reasons. One, it shows a failed feeding attempt at intimacy and the importance of the act. The fact that the last bit in the actual hospital room is focused on the smashed Apple on the floor means that the offer and subsequent denial was Important.

Then we don’t see another feeding scene until Issue 343. This starts on Page 5 – Panel 4. Sakura looks at Naruto’s attempts to feed himself with his weak hand and thinks about an earlier discussion between them. The look on her face is one of thoughtful sadness. The flashback we are treated to is a scene in the hospital where they are discussing getting closer to Sasuke together. She is healing him (again helping him with something, requiring close physical contact) and she remonstrates him over the fact that there is stuff that she can’t heal. While Naruto admits that he’s enjoying himself there, He does not respond to perceived lack of strength that Sasuke does. This greatly surprises Sakura and may stun her into realizing something. This flashback then switches to the present, where she scoots her chair closer and looks at him through half lidded eyes (IMO lusty). Again we see physical closeness necessary for feeding someone. Naruto is stunned by whats going on and then Sai intervenes…. Damn. Note that the last we see of Sakura in this issue is as she worriedly looks over at him as he has been told that he’s as strong/stronger than Kakashi. This means that he will put himself at greater risk and she doesn’t want that.

When we compare the scenes of Sakura/Sasuke and Sakura/Naruto, we see several key differences. The first is that the male party responds differently to the offer. Naruto is excited, if somewhat confused, by the offer and sees it as a welcome development. Sasuke sees it as nothing more than an annoyance which he carelessly swats away. Naruto is also noticeable despondent over being fed by Kakashi rather than Sakura whereas all Sasuke cares about is strength. During the scenes, we see flashbacks. One is of Sasuke remember how Naruto has grown and developed. Sakura’s is over her concern for Naruto and his statement that, effectively he enjoys her company and companionship (“We are getting closer to Sasuke together”) When we compare these two scenes we see that first scene is full of fail versus the second scene which is only part fail due to Sai’s and then Kakashi’s intervention.

Common responses
Sakura is only feeding Naruto because that’s what a friend would do
This could be true, but the context of the scene within the character’s mind and within the text itself argues against it. We have the other scenes which show an increased level of intimacy either created or attempted by the characters. We also have Naruto and Sakura’s reaction to his feeding. Naruto is surprised and excited while Sakura’s expression belies an underlying feeling (of smex or at least attraction). Then we have Naruto’s reaction when Sai steps in which is frustration and a bit of anger. He tells Sai tp “read the atmosphere” which means that if NARUTO picked up on it then the least we could do is notice it. He’s even more disappointed when Kakashi intervenes and starts to feed him.

Sakura is using Naruto to get Sasuke back
Holy hell, you are one cynical human being. This basically reduces Sakura to being one of the most abusive and usurious personalities with the Naruto-verse. This statement puts her on a level with Orochimaru and Madara. In fact, if this were true I would expect her to be the big bad not Madara.

Edited: For clarity and formatting