"Just shut up and let me talk for three hours. Everything will be on the exam, including stuff I don't go over in lecture. If you have questions then you're stupid and don't deserve to be here."

World's Worst Bartender 

Hey if she finds Mr. or Mrs. Right, she can always file for divorce. 

I'm telling you, Sasuke's real superpower is getting people to like, no, love him with minimal effort on his part. I understood Sakura's infatuation with him when she was twelve. She was young, and he wasn't dangerous or a criminal or an enemy of any sort. He was her teammate, and no--he didn't treat her like dog food. The worst he was to her was dismissive. However, if her life were in danger he did step up and try to save her in Part 1. Team Seven had its merits and dynamics back then. I didn't fault her for being who she was and liking who she did anymore than I faulted Naruto for liking her. Sakura's treatment of Naruto was harsher than Sasuke's treatment of her. However as things turned serious we could see the beginnings of Sakura's conflicted feelings toward Sasuke and her growing opinion of Naruto. 

I wouldn't be indifferent to the matter. Part of liking a character is being invested in what happens with them, and it would just be so contrary to everything that's been happening for the past 600+ chapters I would feel quite disappointed. It's because I like her that I care about who she ends up with, what decisions she makes, what I feel her character should becoming moving forward and I don't know if I'll like her less if it happens but it probably will effect my opinion of her at least right after reading such a thing. I'll be more upset with the writer for the poor handling of one of his best characters. I don't think he's strong enough a writer to preserve Sakura's integrity as a character while putting her in such a scenario. 

There's just... a lot I'm still struggling to digest really. It's left me teetering between apathy and scorn. Sometimes, I just want to laugh. Though I have to say, one of the things that I don't know if I'm crazy or what--but I'm REALLY REALLY disappointed that Sakura's child is so unlikeable. I don't know if I'm the only one who's bothered by her personality, but I just can't believe this is Sakura's child. This girl who goes around following bolt with a frown. It's like she's supposed to represent her father, whereas Bolt is meant to represent his, as some sort of next-gen hetero version of NaruSasu and it just doesn't work for me on any level. I really dislike Salada. Not because she's a SasuSaku baby--I would have thought if anything I could at least like the children, but I... I hate this little girl XD I was banking that if nothing else, I'd love Sakura's child! Gah. 

I think a lot of good arguments have been raised so I'm not really getting into the debate but just wanted to say that I think the reason why Sakura is my favourite is because she's NOT a goddess. Sasuke and Naruto are the ones descended from a goddess. Hinata is the one that has a Byakugan like the goddess. Meanwhile, there's Sakura on the side with the characters who've had little to no handouts and that's cool with me~

Oh, and I guess I'll also mention that the critique of Sakura and her Sasuke obsession is really a universal problem. Sasuke is the character that is loved without any reason, even when he goes out of his way to hurt the people he cares about, or just flat out distance himself. Why do Ino, Karin, Naruto, and Sakura care about him? The three ladies have all cried over him. Naruto had been worse when it came to Sasuke--before the fake 'confession' Sakura wasn't giving much indication that she loved him romantically. The recent "I love you!" and the whole plot surrounding Naruto and Sasuke's cosmic brotherhood really just pushes the uncomfortable Sasuke situation. This wasn't always the case part 2--Sasuke was almost exclusively Naruto's obsession and Sakura's desperation to "Save Sasuke for you!" was a lot more understandable when Naruto was losing himself over it. 

So I feel like when it comes to Sakura's major Sasuke flaws it's due more to inconsistency? She loses herself whenever Sasuke needs to be an important element to the plot. There's no bigger excuse for having her act irrationally, becoming emotional, getting knocked out when she's proven herself far more competent (thinking the example with the Cloud Nin) than it being because she "loves" Sasuke. Heck, even Kakashi tries to justify it, meanwhile Sasuke LAMPSHADES how ridiculous it is. I almost found it like the author acknowledging that it's problematic, and then trying to have the Sage and Kakashi TRY to make it sound reasonable...but Sakura is still laying there unconscious with her last sensation being a CHIDORI RIPPED THROUGH THE HEART. Even if it was not true, that is Sasuke's 'response' to her confession...and we're still supposed to believe that anyone should be fighting to get him back?

Hinata in contrast is rather consistent, where I can't attribute her actions to necessity of plot so much as her character traits. The freedom of not being plot relevant is that she should have more leeway in what she can do in the few panels that she's in--she could just be seen off screen taking Kiba's hand, she could have her moments where she's displaying teamwork, or going along with the crowd, but Hinata is the side character fixated on Naruto...probably because that's what her character is meant to do--be a device for a love triangle, and this is where I feel Kishimoto really lets his characters down. A big portion of their badly written side is because they're involved in romance. Flaws are one thing, and they can help strengthen a character. Sakura making bad decisions and being unlikeable at times serves her own story and growth. When these flaws are taken to an extent that is unrealistic, then they are true subtractions of the character.

Hinata is more difficult to reconcile because she doesn't have much away from Naruto, and therefore her good points end up as exaggeration. I think why I and perhaps many do spend time talking about her...criticizing her, is because there are a disproportionate amount of fans who love her and make up a lot of major, good claims about her when really the text isn't there? Does this happen with Sakura? Yeah, but she has more evidence in the text to support her favourable sides and alternative readings. Hinata is more limited.

Character worship and character bashing are not the most productive ways to be a fan, especially the latter, but between the two girls who really merits more praise? 

Whoops I said I wouldn't but I ended up getting into this debate anyways XD 

I presume it was meant as hyperbole or at least as general characterization of how the fandom behaves rather than a literal reading of her. I'm not even sure who my favorite character is anymore. Kakashi or maybe the Second because they have been characters willing to make the adult decisions even if they dislike them. Although Kakashi soon fell back in line. So many people in this story have avoided doing that. To Kishimoto's credit it bit the Third hard and this was acknowledged. I think the Third's refusal to kill Orochimaru was seen as a negative that back fired on him. To Kishimoto's detriment this it totally ignored with Naruto.
 

I like Sakura more than Naruto and Sasuke at the moment, but 693, for me was similar to the Obito is cool moment with Naruto. It's not quiet as bad in that I don't think it demonstrated a morale failing as large as Naruto did at the moment. At the same time, I'm with you. I haven't any idea why she or anyone else likes him. Kishimoto has never done enough to justify why anyone likes him.

I think you can come up with reasons with Naruto because of what he has been through, his ideas, and empathizing with him. I can also understand Naruto being tight fisted with his relationships, regardless of whether it is rational or not. However, Naruto's desires seems far more rooted in his personal friendship and opinion rather than those abstract ideas. Given the message, I think it's that Kishimoto never did enough to show that Sasuke was at any point worthy of any of these feelings while compounding it with so many people behaving so irrationally. You can't point to the past and say when know that person is still there because (1) that person was often an a**hole too and (2) he shown way too much in terms of what he's willing to do to get what he wants. Those are a part of him as well and no one but Sasuke acknowledges this.

In Sakura's case, I just don't get it. After all the development she made from 181 to now, why does she revert to 181. As tricksie said, he slammed a reset button. It's not about moving to Naruto so much as it about her steadfast refusal to move away from Sasuke and then still use that failure of tactic to convince him to return. She calls it pathetic, so why use it? I don't find Naruto persuasive, but he is standing up to Sasuke. Why isn't she? Why is her plea so...I don't know...so meek? How is this so distinctly different than Hinata's deferential nature as it pertains to Naruto. Sakura has shown in others instances to not always be like that, but we never see Hinata in situations where we can even evaluate how Hinata would response if it were not Naruto.
 

I think his failure with Hinata is that he never allowed her to leave Naruto's orbit. I agree with your criticism that you made a while ago and that there really is not evidence that she's this super-nice person. It's mostly an assumption that is made as an extension of her being shy. The two are frequently linked in entertainment so I understand the extension, but we really have no idea how she behaves around besides Naruto.

I think Kishimoto's refusal to let her leave Naruto's obit has done such a disservice to her character. As Hinata fans erroneous assume traits that have not been demonstrated, her detractors are quick to use her status as a satellite character to assume traits I don't think the author means to convey. I've said before, I cannot see him covertly stomping on her.

For me, she is a bore who does nothing interesting. It's not just that it's Naruto, it's that its Naruto as the ideal. She has no involvement with his struggles and problems in any meaningful way let alone one that demonstrates things either for her, Naruto, or the audience. She just...exists for the romantic subplot without ever doing anything to really move it all. She's just plain and boring. As much as I loathe 693, Sakura is interesting and, on occasion, does thing that help move the story. While horribly under utilized in this role, she at least has involvement in the core problems and has, at times, help characters and herself develop as people.

Still, I somewhat understand with lords complaint simply because I recall the users who would go after people, pontificating on who was a proper Sakura fan. It's arrogant and obnoxious. I also cannot forget people jumping down my throat when I didn't properly genuflect (deliberate hyperbole) before her character. I see what Hinata fans do, watch people here complain, and then watch them do the same damn thing. It doesn't help watching the excuse that it's Kishi's fault not Sakura's excuse trotted out for only her when that's true of almost everyone. Kishimoto is so dedicated to his basic themes and plot that almost everyone has suffered major injuries to their credibility because of the plot, but I don't see the distinction being offered for them. So my sympathy is spent.

I don't share lord's opinion of Sakura or Hinata, but the broader complain...I don't think he's completely off base.

I didn't take the "Sakura is a goddess" thing too seriously, but I just found it amusing to link to THE Goddess of the universe, Kaguya, and how she has gotten nada from that hehe. I suppose to bring this back to the OP and not about the evaluation of these characters--and more about fans on the forum, then absolutely anyone who will shoot down well thought out critiques in order to defend their character without presenting their case on why their disagree--are probably resorting to blind character worship. I mentioned in my post that both character worship and bashing aren't productive, but I can see how light-heartedly loving Sakura isn't so bad and can help in these... less than stellar moments of her. It's when it's paired with bashing of other characters and opinions that it gets really out of hand and yes, I've noticed it too.

I do hold though that Sakura merits more praise than the other, if we're comparing them. I think the fandom at large can be especially hard on her and that kind of happens when you're the main heroine to a story and your author hasn't exactly done the best with you--but the problem with Hinata is the fact that the text does not give her m(any) positives. I don't disagree with giving her a self-absorbed trait, because she's always thinking of herself in relation to Naruto. There are moments where that can seem selfless, but we've seen the alternative of caring ABOUT Naruto is like--in Sakura. What is the basis of her character may be appealing to some (being devoted as a positive) but for me it is a subtraction, and the total sum is a minus. However! Much like how despite the major hiccups in Sakura's character sometimes as a fan I shrug and just go "oh well" and like her despite it, I understand Hinata fans may like her despite what I consider to be evidence to support their claims; liking the idea of her than what's on paper. I like Sakura for what she's been--which for me is interesting--and I can justify why she's weak in some areas (SASUKE NEEDS TO BE LOOOOOOVED!!!!!) so I suppose whatever makes us happy.

I assume you want people to check a doctor because you think they're delusional, buuuut I'm pretty sure you hold some delusions yourself in regards to Hinata. A far better person? At the moment she's stuck in a dream where everything is fine and dandy and Sakura is dealing with reality. Also, what qualities and aspects are these? Genuinely curious, because as I was arguing text doesn't having much that gives her qualities beyond shy girl in love with Naruto working on her confidence issues. Is it how she's so supportive of her team--wait, no. Is it how she's so nice--nope, never did anything for anyone outside of Naruto. Is it how she's self-sacrificing? Only if it's Naruto~ I think you like the idea of her as much as Sakura fans do. They both have obvious failures, so don't tell someone that refuting your point is a "waste of time" unless you mean you won't even bother to listen... Regardless, that last part was quite rude.

I think it's been touched on that Naruto's perception of Sasuke's character is the reason why he wouldn't step in. One criticism I always had of part 2 Naruto was that he didn't stand up for Sakura the same way he did part 1 when Sasuke was being cruel to her. It was pretty telling that when Sasuke tried to kill Sakura a second time his response was "she's part of team 7 too!" and he never really spoke to Sakura after that. We had been hoping that in the long run they would work out their issues, that later moments would make up for it, but there was always this lack of appropriate responses when it came to team 7. Sasuke too easily forgiven, Naruto too optimistic, Sakura always worrying and feeling inadequate. Those things weren't really resolved. Sasuke just sort of decided that he was done being a lone renegade and so they decided to move on.

That means that, to quote Elsa, they decided "the past is in the past" and if Naruto wasn't going to call Sasuke out during the bad, he's not going to while it's going good. Obviously, this doesn't make us happy or reflect well on Naruto.

Sasuke is more heroic than Naruto? Not in my interpretation he isn't. The hero and heroine were supposed to be Naruto and Sakura, just like how this whole manga was supposed to have a good story and whatnot. Just because the two weren't great at their roles, doesn't mean that others were better. Neither Hinata nor Sasuke make a better hero. The entire story just became a mess, and I held out hoping that the end would be worth it but I was... deeply surprised. Sakura's handling doesn't make sense to us because she had a shred of heroine material beforehand. I found stuff I liked about her, and I was disappointed in various parts of the manga because I felt it didn't hold up and then of course that stupid ending. If Sakura wasn't the heroine, I wouldn't have expected her to act like one. She's proven to me she can be, but the whims of the writer are like the autumn sky. 

Sakura, personally, but Hinata is pretty too--I don't like how some people use looks to either boost up or downgrade a certain character, especially for pairings. I'm not going to pretend like I don't know why these two were pitted against each other. Even if Hinata was prettier, would that matter? It's purely subjective. Some people like one aesthetic over the other. Now if you were to ask who was referenced as being 'pretty' more, then it would be Sakura pwning everyone. She's had more romantic interest directed her way than any other female character. I think only Sasuke beats her there, but what does it mean? Is it because she's considered canonically beautiful? Or because people also fall for her personality and charm? I say it's both, and being the main female character also helps matters. 

Point is, the fact that one is prettier than the other means nothing but that someone finds one character prettier than the other. Like, it's interesting just to see what others think, but in the end it means one over the other. Also, I'm not going to pretend when it comes to who I envision as prettier having nothing to do with who I like better. It's all perspective after all. 

I liked LoK villains better because it wasn't their force that challenged the Avatar, but their ideologies. Azula had a great dynamic with her brother, serving as a strong antagonist, but it was because of her tactics and prowess that she gave them trouble. Her motivations in the end seemed to be misguided feelings about her mother/parental neglect. Ozai was the leader of a militant nation and was the symbol of oppression. I liked the personalities and motives of LoK villains better than Avatar's. 

The way Kakashi was handled as becoming Hokage was really lacklustre. I understood him becoming a Hokage after it seemed like Tsunade wouldn't make it but she DID, and they didn't say that she should step down when she came to. She's not older than Sarutobi was when he was Hokage, and now that they had entered a time of peace and transitioning the title isn't as risky as it was before. Kakashi didn't want to be Hokage, so if we remove Obito's wish than I don't see why he would take up the position. I like the idea that Tsunade was the fifth and then Naruto was the sixth. Kakashi was a mere placeholder and that does not to me warrant being put on that mountain. 

What's wrong with Sakura is the same thing that's wrong with anyone who has feelings for Sasuke. This is very reminiscent of Naruto's "we're great friends" remark that had a majority of us facepalming. Sasuke has to be loved. He can betray you, attempt to kill you, enslave all your new beast-friends, and there will still remain those feelings. At the very least, Sakura's feelings are handled tragically. She's the one who suffers from all this. I wonder what's wrong with the Sage and Kakashi for discussing "oh love is so complicated" and "I hope Naruto saves Sakura" over an unconscious Sakura--who is currently experiencing a hallucination about BEING MURDERED. 

It's weird that I found solace in how BAD it is, that I can't imagine that this was what was intended all along. Whenever someone says that NaruSaku fans were delusional, I look to the crappy ending and think 'really'? It's like okay, you can have this ending, and I'll just be here imagining a better one and ignoring yours. It's such a cop out that I can't take it seriously. You can only question 'why' at this point and then move on. It isn't me and my failure to understand Naruto, it's the author's failure to deliver, and nothing spells that out more than this awkward, pathetic ending. 

So at some point I just did move on and stopped being upset. It's a ridiculous ending and if there was something I could do about it, I would, but I know I can't. So I discuss with others who feel the same and we come to similar conclusions. Sometimes I read what people who like it have to say, but I just can't agree though good for them I suppose. 

It would dramatically change her role in the story, for one, because she's a side character that doesn't get much devoted to her. It would change the dynamic of the love rivalry at the beginning, since Hinata would be liking Naruto from the start and having no real interest in Sasuke. I mean, it depends on what Kishimoto would have intended to do with Hinata as a heroine. How involved would she be in the plot, or would she just be one-note and fade into the background while Naruto and Sasuke duke it out? There is potential there to be a good heroine, what with her connection to the Hyuuga and the Byakugan... if she learned to branch out and away from loving Naruto. Being inspired by him is one thing, but the interest is in her becoming stronger more involved in her own storyline. 

I mean, as a hypothetical it could be really good, and certainly there are fanfictions out there that explore this (how well is debatable) but then, when considering how Sakura was handled I don't know that Hinata's role as the heroine would be any better. It presents something of a flaw in his writing if Hinata would make the better heroine simply because she has the Byakugan and belongs to a powerful family. 

The most depressing thing is that I don't even think Sarada is good as Sakura's future. Sarada, aside from having a cringe-worthy name, seems more her father's daughter than Sakura's. I don't see Sakura's influence in her and if I do, it'll probably be something cheap like 'inner Sakura'. Children don't have to be reflections of their parents, but I suppose the fun of imagining the next generation was seeing how the dynamic of the parents are brought out in the kid. Minato and Kushina both expressed themeselves in Naruto from looks, beliefs, and temperament. From what I saw of her... Sarada is pretty unlikeable to me, and that's sad given that she's Sakura's daughter. I thought that if Sasuke and Sakura had a child at the very least I could take solace in the children. Problem is I can't. She seems too much like Karin and Sasuke to me, and I don't like her personality.

Frozen isn't the FIRST Disney movie not to focus on romance, and instead explore a sibling bond. In Lilo and Stitch, Nani and Lilo's relationship was both unconventional (being delegated to 'mom' in a broken home) and realatable in their behaviour. Brother Bear emphasizes the relationship between brothers. In those two movies, romance was a much smaller plot. I'm with you that I would rather not see Frozen 2 become Elsa's love story, since they are still a dime a dozen, but Frozen isn't unique--it's just the most successful example.

What made it special for me was that Elsa's narrative and her reprise for "First Time in Forever" spoke to me in my anxiety and depression. To others, it was interpreted as a narrative about a repressed sexuality. Whatever it was that got us, I can understand that no one wants that message taken away, and that's the fear with Frozen 2. I would personally like seeing Elsa take more of a focus in her personality away from her anxieties and insecurities. I want to see her open up more, and then be challenged--that our problems don't magically disappear with this thing called love, but we have to face them every day and let love and support help us; and also, that it doesn't define us. 

I would prefer if Elsa does not have a love interest, just because I feel it would take away from a better plot--and unless it's for a better cause like giving representation to under-represented groups, I say the Disney crew should just let romance go.

Maybe it's because I just watch the anime, but I'm not that impressed with her and the anime makes out that I really should be--but all I really see is someone who is naturally gifted and loves Eren a lot. She's had a few moments where I've respected her, but I'm just not all that interested in her--I feel like she's given what she's got. She's there to kick ass when she needs to be, and to obsess over Eren. For a main character that's rather bland. I hold out that the future chapters give something more but honestly I prefer to see more of other characters and don't give too much stock in Mikasa and her obvious love plot.

Mikasa is pretty but kind of generic. I mean, you could say that about most of the characters but idk; it also doesn't help that I don't like her >.> 

Don't kill me sorry. 

1.Annie, even in her Titan form

2.Christa 

3. Petra

4. Sasha

5. Ymir

Can't say I break the trends... I think Minato is the man I'd most want--he's a sweetheart, a leader, and he's good looking. I dunno, he just works. After him... 

2. Tobimara Senju

3. Young Adult Jiraiya

4. Yahiko/Pain 

They all kind of have similar hairstyles... Trend? XD

It's great! Fleur doesn't get as much credit. I always found Ginny rather annoying for making fun of her. She was obviously an incredibly talented witch if she was selected for the triwizard tournament. Then again, I am of the opinion that most pairings with Harry are better than the way Ginny was handled. As for the fanart itself, it's gorgeous and I like how it feels something of a mesh between book style art and the live-action portraits of the characters. Big fan~

The only part that really got me, and I mean really made me cry, was after Clementine was shot and we had the dream sequence with Lee in the RV. For me, I haven't really attached to this new group. No one cared as much for Clementine as Lee had--he had been the one to protect her, to make the tough choices, to guide her through life, and now she's the protagonist and there's so much relying on her that my gosh--people forget she's a kid. When she went back to Lee in the dream... ah I get emotional just thinking about it. As the player, it was so comforting that Lee reassured me that there isn't any easy answers--that you can't keep everyone happy; that people are going to get hurt and making the decision in the moment you never know what's gunna happen. I seem to have made the wrong decision twice and hurt people when I was only trying to do my best. The first time was with Sarita when I cut off her arm in an attempt to save her, and Kenni had been horribly angry with me. The second time was with Luke, when I chose to cover him rather than go over and save him because I thought the ice would give way and then Bonnie was blaming me just like Kenni had before.

I'm sad that it went in the direction that it did with Bonnie and Mike. I wanted to stick with them...though maybe not after Bonnie unfairly accused me of being responsible for Luke's death and all just because Clementine--A TWELVE YEAR OLD GIRL--did not go over to save him. Ugh. We all know how this goes by now anyways. If they don't die earlier they'll get offed later. That's my one gripe about this season and all its deaths. Kind of put me in the 'why bother to save them' attitude.

I chose to shoot Kenni because he really was a ticking time bomb and I didn't want to stick with him anymore, but when Jane revealed she had hidden the baby to prove a point I was just kind of through with everyone. No one has been as good to me as Lee, though I admit Jane had some really good scenes with Clem and I do think she really began to care about her. Anyways, in the end it's just Clem and the baby. She can take care of herself! Though it sucks because I really wanted to go to Wellington for a chance to find Christa and that didn't look like Wellington weather to me.

I wasn't the only one who was bawling XD Yeah, when Jane did that I felt that she really screwed up. I understand her concerns about Kenni, I really do, but that she would be so reckless to as you say prove a point... It was just too cruel to put Clementine through that. I was so done with people at that point XD It really will be interesting to see how the different endings play out. I'm really glad Clementine survived though! When she was shot I was worried that she was going to die and this would be it for her ;-; My one wish this season was for Clementine to survive and she did. Let's hope it's the same for next season!

Me too! ;-; I wished that he would never leave me. My brother was also confused but I knew what was up so you're not the only one. 

I admit at first I was really attached to Kenni for the same reason, since he was someone I knew and overall I tend to like the characters from season 1 better than season 2. I definitely want to try different endings just so I can see how they effect Season 3. I do have multiple game files for that reason~ I think a lot of the events this season made me bitter though. So I guess that's why through my first playthrough I ended up alone.

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