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The Great NaruSaku Debate Thread!


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#601 Nate River

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 03:35 AM

Well, geez, I wish I would have waited a bit, because I responded as if it were meant as a direct couter. Give me time to edit this before you use it.

EDIT: okay it is a bit better now.

First, you have no idea how bad I want to comment on the cover of this chapter. However, since it was NaruHina's that made the statement and not SasuSaku's, I'll say nothing more than I have. They didn't make claim so its not right for me to make it here.


QUOTE
Ok, if you don't want to think that Sakura is still in love with Sasuke, or that she never was at any point, fine by me. But is it necessary to try to play down and rationalize a way out of the fact that she is focusing on him in that scene? Of course nothing that is not blatantly stated can be said with 100% certainty, but come on, the whole chapter, I think, is very obviously focused on the impact and influence of Sasuke's absence. Why then, when the rest of the chapter is permeated with the latter, would one scene with Sakura be about something different when she should also be affected by it? That makes a lot less sense than a smooth continuity. Like I said, believe what you want about the nature of the feelings, but no need to try to explain away what you don't want to see. (I agree that SasuSaku is not canon, which I'm guessing is a comment that is being responded to; my response is only in dealing with the interpretation of the point of Sakura's presence in the chapter.)


True Sasuke's impact is important but you are not distinguishing it as a seperate focus outside the context of Team 7. Here are two ways to see it:

(1) She could be thinking something along the lines of "Sasuke, please come back to me" or something of that nature

and

(2) She could thinking, "please, come back so we can be as we were, so we can be whole" or something of that nature i.e. wishing they could be Team 7 as they were before he left.

Each focuses on Sasuke's role and his absence, but the two have very different meanings. The first would clearly implies she is in love with him. In the second, its impossible to tell whether it amounts to simple friendship, close friendship, or being in love. Any of those could exist. As Nick said, its does nothing to distinguish whether she just loves/cares for him or is in love with him.

After thinking about it some more, I admit that I was wrong in placing more emphasis on the Team 7 aspect than Sasuk'se current situation. I should have placed more emphasis on the latter. But even if this is correct, its does not make the first statement true, as Naruto appears to be doing that exact same thing Sakura is. In addition, the two concepts are not mutually exclusive. There does appear to be a clear Team 7 aspect to that entire scene. Of course, its Sasuke absence and role within Team 7, but this is quite different than claiming she is love with Sasuke or that this makes this canon (which is what my counter argument was aimed at refuting). Nothing suggests she is thinking of Sasuke exclusively nor of wanting him back so she can be with him romantically.

Thus, in sum, I meant to say this: That she was thinking about Sasuke in the context of Team 7 (i.e. number 2 as opposed to number 1) and was reflecting on his current choice of actions and what he has become in three years time. I should have placed more emphasis on the latter, and to that extent my previous post is wrong.

I think Nick said it best on the SasuSaku argument: This scene does not tell us anything we did not already know. We have know since 246 that she cares for him. How far that goes is not clear (nor is it with Naruto) and this scene does not do a whole to to resolve this. However, its reptition of that caring does have meaning.

#602 Arsene

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 03:42 AM

QUOTE (Shriner @ Aug 17 2006, 11:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well, geez, I wish I would have waited a but, because I responded as if it were meant as a direct couter. Give me time to edit this before you use.


Heh, my apologies. I'll try conducting my own arguments rather than quoting, but whether or not I choose to enter debates again depends on how busy I am the next few weeks and how lazy I am. I don't really plan on entering debates anytime soon but I would like to write that essay.

Posting it on NF? No way. Too many pairings debates went to hell for me to even consider posting it there.

#603 Arsene

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 03:53 AM

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Discuss. Just trying to keep the thread alive and gather more info!

#604 Hopestar

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 04:19 AM

I'm telling you this getting ridculous I mean if we think about SasuSaku is really basic on Sakura's feelings yeah Sasuke cares for her too BUT NOT IN THAT WAY!!!!! I think it more like a caring teammate/sister by standards.

That seen in 319 can justify her thoughts though she's rying it be "please come to me Sasuke" or "why cant things be the way they were before". Also Naruto is having his thoughts of Sasuke too. True Sasuke is their driving force but while they are training and everything they failed to realize the true reality check. The possibilty that Sasuke may never return, sure you save him form Orochimaru doesnt mean that he's coming back. He may wonder off to another village to continue until his ambition is complete. Even if Sasuke returns nothing will ever be the same in many ways as such!

As for NaruSaku they've been developmenting since part 1 though Sasuke had put in some support it was on their own pace. It just wasnt that noticable until part 2 since its been swifting on both sides. As of today Naruto still loves Sakura and Sakura does care for him we can say their relationship is geniune & platonic until Kishi says otherwise.
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#605 Arsene

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 05:27 AM

Staying alive!
Staying alive!

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Discuss.

Last post. After this, i'm gonna start workin' on that essay.

#606 Arsene

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 05:38 AM

Discuss:

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#607 Nick Soapdish

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 01:56 PM

Please don't just post links to other posts. If there is something that you want to comment on about those posts, go ahead. But don't just drag them in here on their own.


And if you're posting twice in short succession and/or have subsequent posts, you can easily just add to the previous post instead of double-posting.

#608 Arsene

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 02:32 PM

QUOTE (Nick Soapdish @ Aug 18 2006, 09:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Please don't just post links to other posts. If there is something that you want to comment on about those posts, go ahead. But don't just drag them in here on their own.


And if you're posting twice in short succession and/or have subsequent posts, you can easily just add to the previous post instead of double-posting.


My apologies.

#609 kawarimi

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 04:40 PM

You can respond to me directly if you like. I had a feeling my post would make it's way over here. :o

QUOTE
I've been waiting for that moment for a while now - Naruto and Sakura reflecting on their failure to save Sasuke. And by gosh that's what those scenes are. Sakura didn't come out and say Sasuke's name, but why would Naruto and the title be about Sasuke's absence being a motivation, and then Sakura only reminiscing about the past in general? If you put that scene in the context of the rest of the chapter, I think it's obvious (but maybe I'm just being delusional, but it seems clear as day to me).

I said in my original post that it wasn't about the pairing implications. It's the fact that people are trying to take the focus off of Sasuke for whatever reason. If what you mean reminiscing on the Team 7 in the past as in sharp contrast of what is currently missing, then that is along the lines of what I'm talking about. But the point is that what is missing is Sasuke. What is currently motivating Naruto is Sasuke. What motivated Sakura to become strong over the timeskip is Sasuke. (This is very simplified and obviously other reasons are also motivators, but I believe the focal point of the chapter is on Sasuke, which is the subject of the current discussion.) Even in his absence, he's still very much a part of the story because of Naruto and Sakura's reactions and dedication, and using the loss to push themselves. I believe this chapter is finally touching on the emotions that were brushed over at the conclusion of the previous arc. So I just feel when people throw out such comments like Sakura wasn't just thinking of Sasuke, she was thinking of all of them since all four of them are in the picture - I just feel like that's trying to rationalize something out of context instead of looking at the purpose of the chapter. (really hope I'm making sense)


Sorry for the lack of organization, I was tired last night when I wrote these.

QUOTE (Shriner @ Aug 17 2006, 11:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well, geez, I wish I would have waited a bit, because I responded as if it were meant as a direct couter. Give me time to edit this before you use it. Here's more of what I wrote that wasn't brought over that might help clarify what I was getting at.

EDIT: okay it is a bit better now.

First, you have no idea how bad I want to comment on the cover of this chapter. However, since it was NaruHina's that made the statement and not SasuSaku's, I'll say nothing more than I have. They didn't make claim so its not right for me to make it here.


QUOTE
Ok, if you don't want to think that Sakura is still in love with Sasuke, or that she never was at any point, fine by me. But is it necessary to try to play down and rationalize a way out of the fact that she is focusing on him in that scene? Of course nothing that is not blatantly stated can be said with 100% certainty, but come on, the whole chapter, I think, is very obviously focused on the impact and influence of Sasuke's absence. Why then, when the rest of the chapter is permeated with the latter, would one scene with Sakura be about something different when she should also be affected by it? That makes a lot less sense than a smooth continuity. Like I said, believe what you want about the nature of the feelings, but no need to try to explain away what you don't want to see. (I agree that SasuSaku is not canon, which I'm guessing is a comment that is being responded to; my response is only in dealing with the interpretation of the point of Sakura's presence in the chapter.)


True Sasuke's impact is important but you are not distinguishing it as a seperate focus outside the context of Team 7. Here are two ways to see it:

(1) She could be thinking something along the lines of "Sasuke, please come back to me" or something of that nature

and

(2) She could thinking, "please, come back so we can be as we were, so we can be whole" or something of that nature i.e. wishing they could be Team 7 as they were before he left.

Each focuses on Sasuke's role and his absence, but the two have very different meanings. The first would clearly implies she is in love with him. In the second, its impossible to tell whether it amounts to simple friendship, close friendship, or being in love. Any of those could exist. As Nick said, its does nothing to distinguish whether she just loves/cares for him or is in love with him.

After thinking about it some more, I admit that I was wrong in placing more emphasis on the Team 7 aspect than Sasuk'se current situation. I should have placed more emphasis on the latter. But even if this is correct, its does not make the first statement true, as Naruto appears to be doing that exact same thing Sakura is. In addition, the two concepts are not mutually exclusive. There does appear to be a clear Team 7 aspect to that entire scene. Of course, its Sasuke absence and role within Team 7, but this is quite different than claiming she is love with Sasuke or that this makes this canon (which is what my counter argument was aimed at refuting). Nothing suggests she is thinking of Sasuke exclusively nor of wanting him back so she can be with him romantically.

Thus, in sum, I meant to say this: That she was thinking about Sasuke in the context of Team 7 (i.e. number 2 as opposed to number 1) and was reflecting on his current choice of actions and what he has become in three years time. I should have placed more emphasis on the latter, and to that extent my previous post is wrong.

I think Nick said it best on the SasuSaku argument: This scene does not tell us anything we did not already know. We have know since 246 that she cares for him. How far that goes is not clear (nor is it with Naruto) and this scene does not do a whole to to resolve this. However, its reptition of that caring does have meaning.


I wasn't trying to make any distinguishes, at least not yet. To make a (non-difinitive) case either way, you have to look at everything that's occured up to that point, and for a NaruSaku-er and a SasuSaku-er, those are very different interpretations and, for me, not worth going into for distinction on 2 pages. I'd rather wait for what comes later, and then review this scene in retrospect.

My point was, if you look at the scene within the context of the chapter and the lack of resolution of the preceding arc, it should be apparent that the point of focus is Sasuke in those mirroring scenes. Putting more emphasis on Sasuke in the Team 7 context of the reflection is all I was looking for...so great! biggrin.gif

#610 Nate River

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 05:53 PM

I think we are on the same page or close to it at least. My original post on the subject was in response to this:

QUOTE
I totally wasn't expecting to see Sakura this week, what a great surprise! The way Kishimoto-sensei drew her against the moon in those panels was so romantic, especially with the way she cried looking at the picture... I just about melted. Kishimoto-sensei is the master of characterization and I'm happy that he's still pursuing his goal of including more romance in Part 2. You can tell he's totally shipping SasuSaku. If you don't agree with me, go check out the infamous chapter 181 again. See the picture? See the moon? Yeah, it's canon kittenes.


I'm with you, this actually doesn't have a whole lot of bearing on the bearing debate either way (at least outside of what Nick has already said), at least, if Kishimoto does not provide anything else. When I looked at it the second time, I saw it they way you explained it. I don't think I ever meant to imply that she was thinking about everyone without any special emphasis on Sasuke, though I do admit to overemphasizing Team 7. As you said he is the missing piece, so it would be his role and absence within Team 7 with a specific emphasis on what happened about ten chapters ago. I agree that from what we see, its pretty clear that is going on. My dispute with the above quote is the context and the nature of which he is being thought.

I don't believe I was attempting to rationalize anything, at least not deliberately. Perhaps, if I did it was unconscious, but my original post was my first impression, which was not wholly correct.

#611 kawarimi

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Posted 18 August 2006 - 06:06 PM

Sorry, I missed copying the part of the post that said this was also in response to a number of posts on the subject, not just yours. sweatdrop.gif Yes, I think we're on the same page now, just flipsides of that same paper. tongue.gif

#612 Arsene

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Posted 20 August 2006 - 01:38 AM

QUOTE
her actions have all been geared towards sasukes return. she faught sasori with determination because she was going to beat information out of him regarding oros where abouts. wonder why she'd wanna do that!
she punched sai when he was bad mouthing sasuke.
she was prepared to fight sasuke to bring him back and she cried when they failed.
shes crying over a picture of team seven? which component of that picture would cause her sadness? how bout the one thats missing?


Wow...and they say we blow everything out of proportion...

Well, all of that is true, but whoever wrote it conviently ignored many parts of what actually happened. She fought Sasori because she wanted to help Gaara and Naruto. The Oro info was just a little added bonus. She punched Sai because he was badmouthing both of her teammates. And lets see, what about her team could possibly make her cry, other than Sasuke missing?

-Her entire team is split up/had been for 2.5 years.
-One of her teammates is about to get his body taken over.
-The other is being hunted down by some of the most dangerous nin in the world.
-There's a freakin' demon in her best friend.
-Worst of all, she can't do a think to help either of her teammates.

#613 Arsene

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 01:02 AM

A quote from PhoenixBlood on SasuSaku's development:

QUOTE
There was development from Sasuke toward both his teammates and Kakashi. There was development prior to Sasuke's departure toward Sakura. He was somewhat open with her during the bell test (with very little prompting), he cared enough to compliment her to boost her confidence (while Naruto was oblivious), he's protected her in combat on quite a few occasions, he wanted to hurt those who hurt her, and then subsequently was returned to humanity by her tears and embrace, he said right before the prelims that "not even she" could stop him in his path to revenge, he confessed to Naruto that both of them had become pretty much as precious to him as his family and was willing to throw away his life and revenge for Naruto to rescue Sakura, he gently set Sakura down when he caught her from the sand trap and told Pakkun to take care of her, he listened to her the night he left (when he could have just knocked her out right away) and was even moved by what she said, and even Shikamaru realized that Sakura would be the one Sasuke would listen to most (if she hadn't been able to convince them, then they would have to fight him). During the bell test he protested when she hugged him out of relief; during the Wave arc he complaine that she was heavy but didn't press further; when Tsunade had healed him from Tsukuyomi, he just let her hug him. When they were first made a team, Sasuke called her annoying because she was vain and shallow about the pain of others; in chapter 181, he called her annoying, revealing that indeed he had remembered the day despite denying it earlier in the conversation - what else may he have been denying/repressing? I can't say anything for certain, but there was development, and from what I saw, he treated Sakura in a way that he didn't indulge Naruto.


Wow, great job with blowing everything out of proportion...

Anybody care to discuss?

#614 Arsene

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 04:14 AM

http://forums.naruto...postcount=13019

http://forums.naruto...&postcount=2952

http://forums.naruto...&postcount=2954

Anybody care to counter?

#615 Nick Soapdish

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 04:29 PM

QUOTE (Arsene @ Aug 20 2006, 09:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
A quote from PhoenixBlood on SasuSaku's development:

QUOTE
There was development from Sasuke toward both his teammates and Kakashi. There was development prior to Sasuke's departure toward Sakura. He was somewhat open with her during the bell test (with very little prompting), he cared enough to compliment her to boost her confidence (while Naruto was oblivious), he's protected her in combat on quite a few occasions, he wanted to hurt those who hurt her, and then subsequently was returned to humanity by her tears and embrace, he said right before the prelims that "not even she" could stop him in his path to revenge, he confessed to Naruto that both of them had become pretty much as precious to him as his family and was willing to throw away his life and revenge for Naruto to rescue Sakura, he gently set Sakura down when he caught her from the sand trap and told Pakkun to take care of her, he listened to her the night he left (when he could have just knocked her out right away) and was even moved by what she said, and even Shikamaru realized that Sakura would be the one Sasuke would listen to most (if she hadn't been able to convince them, then they would have to fight him). During the bell test he protested when she hugged him out of relief; during the Wave arc he complaine that she was heavy but didn't press further; when Tsunade had healed him from Tsukuyomi, he just let her hug him. When they were first made a team, Sasuke called her annoying because she was vain and shallow about the pain of others; in chapter 181, he called her annoying, revealing that indeed he had remembered the day despite denying it earlier in the conversation - what else may he have been denying/repressing? I can't say anything for certain, but there was development, and from what I saw, he treated Sakura in a way that he didn't indulge Naruto.


Wow, great job with blowing everything out of proportion...

Anybody care to discuss?


Specifics please.

If you're going to post it because it's out of proportion, please explain why you think it's out of proportion.

#616 TheVileOne

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Posted 21 August 2006 - 07:18 PM

It's funny how people brush aside whole entire arguments by saying "ah, it's blown out of proportion, so none of it's relevant at all."

What the manga tells me really, is that Sakura's heart is still set on Sasuke. Maybe she has some feelings for Naruto, but the matter of Sasuke where her heart is concerned is far from resolved.

I'm personally tired of all the Sasuke crap though. It's getting pretty old and boring. Kishimoto is dragging things out way too much.

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#617 bloodwalker

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Posted 22 August 2006 - 02:02 AM

I agree that this waiting is driving some of us crazy. All about Sasuke is getting tiresome, not because of the NaruSaku or SasuSaku pairing, is just getting boring as a motivation for the two.

Naruto wants to save Sasuke and has two reasons to become stronger: for Sasuke's sake (the main reason), because he will be possessed by Orochimaru; and for Sakura, not just because he made a promise, but because he wants her happyness.

Sakura is still in the line between Sasuke and Naruto. She had a crush on Sasuke from the beginning of the series and Naruto understood her feelings when she asked him to save him. She cares for Naruto, no doubt about that. But I believe it will take a long time before a true NaruSaku moment, the one we've been waiting, can actually happen.

Naruto doesn't want Sakura to get involved in his problems with Akatsuki. This felling could be strenghten if a moment between Sakura and Sasuke happens after they save him (I'm a NaruSaku fan, but this is a possibility). So our wait could be until God and Kishi decides.

I decided to stop waiting for a true NaruSaku moment and enjoy the series, the new jutsus, the battles and fun moments. NaruSaku will come, it's just a matter of time.

#618 Hopestar

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Posted 22 August 2006 - 06:18 PM

Yeah just takes patiance!
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#619 Nate River

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Posted 22 August 2006 - 06:45 PM

QUOTE (Arsene @ Aug 20 2006, 08:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
A quote from PhoenixBlood on SasuSaku's development:

QUOTE
There was development from Sasuke toward both his teammates and Kakashi. There was development prior to Sasuke's departure toward Sakura. He was somewhat open with her during the bell test (with very little prompting), he cared enough to compliment her to boost her confidence (while Naruto was oblivious), he's protected her in combat on quite a few occasions, he wanted to hurt those who hurt her, and then subsequently was returned to humanity by her tears and embrace, he said right before the prelims that "not even she" could stop him in his path to revenge, he confessed to Naruto that both of them had become pretty much as precious to him as his family and was willing to throw away his life and revenge for Naruto to rescue Sakura, he gently set Sakura down when he caught her from the sand trap and told Pakkun to take care of her, he listened to her the night he left (when he could have just knocked her out right away) and was even moved by what she said, and even Shikamaru realized that Sakura would be the one Sasuke would listen to most (if she hadn't been able to convince them, then they would have to fight him). During the bell test he protested when she hugged him out of relief; during the Wave arc he complaine that she was heavy but didn't press further; when Tsunade had healed him from Tsukuyomi, he just let her hug him. When they were first made a team, Sasuke called her annoying because she was vain and shallow about the pain of others; in chapter 181, he called her annoying, revealing that indeed he had remembered the day despite denying it earlier in the conversation - what else may he have been denying/repressing? I can't say anything for certain, but there was development, and from what I saw, he treated Sakura in a way that he didn't indulge Naruto.


Wow, great job with blowing everything out of proportion...

Anybody care to discuss?

I don't have time to analyze this in detail, but whether this is blown out of proportion depends on the point she is trying to make. From the post itself, its looks like she is simply saying that there has been SasuSaku development. Possibly in response to someone claiming that there is no or that he cares nothing about her (at least in Part 1, she says nothing about Part 2). If that's all then she saying then nothing is really blown out of porportion. To be able to guage that I would need the context in which the post was made. Because there was development and he did care for her on some level. I wouldn't call it love, but, at least in this post, neither does she.

#620 Silent Shinobi

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Posted 22 August 2006 - 11:15 PM

Yeah, at least in that post. Phoenix is pretty good with not stating things without backing it up, and just letting the implications linger... she's a good debater like that. But if this is used in the context of SasuSaku's development, I'd have to say that it's pretty thin. Just because he's opening up to her on a more personal level doesn't have the romantic connotation to make SasuSaku canon, IMO.




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