Naruto 606

I am not sure if you're referring to my post, but just in case I want to clarify something. I said that in Dragonball series whenever a great tragedy happens they always seem to just literally wish their problems away after dealing with the bad guy. Naruto did this once with Nagato, but it's not like this will happen again. I never really said the bad guys change just as often in Dragonball, but they do have some moments especially with Vegeta who was a main villain in the beginning.

I also make the point that unlike Naruto, Goku doesn't go through as many moral challenging villains. You know what I mean? There has never been any villains to challenge Goku on that moral standing where Goku had to rethink how he lived his life. Naruto has at least on 4 occasion, maybe more.

Though I do want to point out that Evil Buu did reincarnate as Uub and it makes me wonder Zac how you would feel if something similar happened in Naruto? Like maybe, I don't know, Obito dies and comes back a Otibo. (Stupid example I know, but let's role with it just for the example.



I see your point. Just like with Dragonball, it felt like there was no such thing as consequences. Which I can also see why Nate sees the Nagato scene as leaving a bad taste in your mouth. However, it is only a one time thing. I doubt Kishi will pull that off again. Everyone else kind of stayed dead save for the Edo Tensei, but then I don't count that for obvious reasons.

Let me edit that: It happened twice. Once with Gaara and Chiyo and once with Nagato. In their defense I will say this, it's not like they just came back without anything being given up. Chiyo sacrificed herself to bring Gaara back and Nagato sacrificed himself to bring everyone back. Take that as you will. Unlike Dragonball where nothing was really given up.

As for redemptions? I only like redemptions when it is used on characters that it really works for. Like with Obito. He wasn't always a bad guy, just corrupted and even now while he may do bad things, he does really have bad intentions. If you really think about it, his intentions are fro the greater good believing that if he does this then war, death, and pain don't exist anymore. Maybe that's why I see him as redeemable. He is not a bad guy by nature, just he wanted Rin back and was willing to give up anything for her.

I don't see Madara or Sasuke redeemable at this point without it seeming forced.



Thanks and it's cool if you don't agree with everything. I don't expect you to. lol

Edited by James S Cassidy, 22 October 2012 - 02:00 PM.

I wasn't replying to you, no worries. That was in response to Phantom. And yeah, you are right about Goku not really being challenged philosophically or anything like that. His conflicts were all more...straightforward.

A reincarnated Obito? I'd actually be fine with that because the original Obito would still have stayed his course until the end. He'd be the same person, yet different. Fresh experiences to mold his mind.


Not much I can reply with here without repeating myself again; you pretty much covered everything. I see why Obito can be redeemed, I would just like him to be an exception is all. I'd understand if he is redeemed, though, and why it wouldn't be too far fetched.

But yeah, a redeemed Madara or Sasuke would be unthinkable. Especially Madara.

Edited by zacrathedemon5, 22 October 2012 - 02:02 PM.

Okay, no it's fine. Just me being a little paranoid I guess



Kind of does sound like a good idea, doesn't it? Wow, I just had a horrible thought in my head where some how Obito gets
reincarnated as a baby due in part to the Gedo Mazo and Kakashi end up having to take care of baby Obito.



Groovy. I understand why you want him to be a villain cause he is doing a bang up job of it so far. He is an awesome villain. Glad we can reach a mutual understanding.

Very cute XD

Do you think when the alliance arrive, Obito will take care of them or Madara will be the one or all of them against Madara and Obito. Although, the last option seems the one that most likely won't happen cause it will be a fuss for all to take their own positions and attack, if you could imagine how the battle will be in that way. Besides, it will be somewhat jammed.

Well, I guess I can't say much about both sides, mainly because in my opinion, both have rights and wrongs. Still, if you feel like you were insulted in a way (I say this because I have not felt insulted in any of the posts), then I could say that James owes you an apology. Still, I wish these debates wouldn't get so personal sometimes. I'm not saying you're at fault here, nor James, nor anyone, really. I just wish people accept the fact that we all can have different opinions and still enjoy debates with a friendly mood.

Another thing I noticed is that an opinion may hold a larger group of people behind it than others. It may be wrong, it may be right, but it happens. It happened to me that I questioned people about criticizing Kishi and had a group snowball on me about it. So well, I may disagree on some points, but still, I don't wish to create trouble, so I apologized quickly (though I feel recently like words alone aren't enough to show that I'm sorry). So what I'm trying to say is: sometimes its best to take the initiative in putting down some heated discussions.

Anyway, I don't think I'm suited to try and give advices, so I'll just shut my mouth for now.



Huh? What? When was I dragged out into this? XD

Anyway, this was pretty much the topic I was talking about (the one of the snowball effect).

By the way, something I noticed recently (man I'm so slow) is that Obito pretty much steps over Kakashi. In a way, Kinda hummiliating, don't you think?

But what's really making me think a lot recently is that I know now that Obito is in possession of Rin's body. Plus if we go back to the beginning of the war arc, we know that he learned the impure resurrection jutsu (Kabuto showed him), so that gives him the chance to revive Rin, right? If so, then I have to wonder, will he do that, or will he just go with the Moon's Eye plan and become another puppet for Madara (because IMO, Madara wouldn't even care to give Rin to Obito after he puts everyone under the gengutsu, right?).

And that gets me to yet another question: What would Rin say to both Obito and Kakashi if she was revived?

The sad part is I already gave her two apologies. One personal message, the other in the post itself. I even admitted I was wrong, but I guess this wasn't enough. If she wants to escalate this past the point of no return, then that's her choice. I already said what I needed to say and that's it. I even had small discussions even before this with several other members and none of them took it as an insult. As far as I am concerned, my post is fine. If many people were insulted, then yes I would apologize, but I've already given Tricksie a personal apology.

What happens next is up to her. I'll leave the ball in her court from here on out.



Not you personally, just the discussion we had about the difference between whining and criticism. I find that I remember stuff easier if I remember in context. (Remember by example)

Edited by James S Cassidy, 22 October 2012 - 04:17 PM.

Agreed. I could handle it if Obito was redeemed, but not Madara.



Me too. He's probably some of the few villains that really interest me.



That's certainly an interesting idea. I've actually had this idea for a couple of weeks, but I don't think Obito has Rin's body as he didn't even bring her to the lair. But I wouldn't be surprised if it was revealed that he has Rin's body. I agree that he probably wanted to revive Rin. He probably planned to use Nagato's Rinne Tensei for her and screw Madara over. But since Kabuto screwed it so badly, he'll have to fall back on ET.

And yes, I would love to see what happens when Rin learns of everything. In fact, I'd be begging for Kishi to revive her just to see how everything will turn out.

I second that.

Um, let me just set the record straight here. Yes you did pm me, but it was well before the you put up the post I've taken issue with.

But I'm not worried about apologies. I just want you to stop directly and indirectly targeting people in your posts with the name-calling. Myself and the others singled out by name, as well as for anyone else who feels like they may have been aimed at in the "some people on this site" moniker.


This kind of language has no place here. And this is what I have issue with. Please keep your posts focused more on the topic and less of a rant about members and their differing opinions. The moment these types of personal digs slip into the debate is the moment it stops being a debate.

I guess this is just my opinion, but "maybe occasionally you whine too much" is pretty universal. We all whine a lot sometimes in life, it's just part of being human. It's offensive to point out a universal human trait?

Now I understand that James directed it towards people complaining about Naruto, but the same argument applies.

That's a very nice quote. I looked it up and found that it was from a movie called "Dogma". Sounds very interesting. I might have to watch it sometime.

I agree. It's better to admit when you're wrong than stick to something because of pride. Having conviction and taking pride in your beliefs/ideas is all fine and good, but it can also severely hinder your personal growth.

That's also what my point was. One week someone might say "I think that A should happen" and then I say "Ok" and then the next week they might say "I think that B should happen" and then I say "Ok". I'm not gonna go "But a week ago you said...". I might ask them why they changed their opinon, but that's about it. I'm not saying that hypocrisy doesn't exist. It does and we're all guilty off it from time to time. But really, you believe what you believe.



Yeah, to me the whole "confining the Junichuuriki" arc was basically Naruto conquering the last of his personal demons. Now all that's left for him is to prove himself as "The saviour" or "The child of prophecy". I'm not going to completely rule out the possitiblity that his views might get challenged at some point, but as far as soul searching goes, I don't see there being much more left for him to do.




I'm not sure. Just by living and interacting with the world, we are all actively altering reality, the only difference being the extent of our influence. If I had chosen not to go to class today and had instead stayed home, the only person who would have been affected would probably have been me. As such, the only reality I would have altered would have been my own. However, if I were to suddenly park my car in the middle of a busy highway, my influence would extend to other people as well. The way I see it, "To let things happens as they happen" would mean being completely passive and thus never interact with anything or anyone and I just don't think that's possible. I do think that Naruto has learned that not everything can be changed the way he wants it to. Take Sasuke for example. If I recall correctly, Naruto stated during the Kage summit arc that if Sasuke tried to attack Konoha, he wouldn't hold back even if it meant killing him. So yes, this is indeed a very interesting problem and it could be that this will be Naruto's biggest challenge to overcome in future chapters.



Well, for my part I just wan't to say that my post was not in any way meant to demean or insult any members. In fact, the point I was making was that it's not fair to label people as "hypocrites" just because they change their opinons from time to time. That's totally okay with me.

I don't really know if you were referring to my post, but in any case I just wanted to put that out there.

Edited by TerrorKing, 22 October 2012 - 11:02 PM.

It is a good movie. It's supposed to be a comedy, but I find sme truth behind the logic that is in the movie. Kevin Smith is a genius.



Eh, to me there is a limit. If I believe in somthing and there is irrefutable proof that I am wrong, then I just look stubbornly obstinate. The question is, what is fact and what has yet to be proven? I mean, if someone still believes that Tobi is not Obito, even though it is proven that he is Obito...then they are just ignorant to the truth.

As for hypocrisy, I just want to say that having an idea that changes is not hypocrisy. This was not what I was referring to. Having a belief and then going against the belief while still believing in such is hypocrisy. If you hate the Naruto manga, yet still read it, that's being a hypocrite. Not pointing at anyone specifically, but just giving an example.



We all actively altering reality, but what I am thinking of is fate or what we deem as fate. There are some moments in our lives where we can't alter the events even if we want to. We can't stop a person from dying if they are going to die. Obito mentioned this to Naruto as well. Because Naruto and Sasuke were decendant from the two brothers, so it is fate that they were going to fight, just as Madara and Harashima were going to fight.

Thats what I am talking about really, but also if Sasuke dies in the end would Naruto accept this outcome? One of the biggest debates I had with a few members is about whether or not Naruto would accept any outcome besides Sasuke coming back to the village. Some said that Sasuke couldn't die because Naruto would never let himself live it down. Some say Sasuke has to be this wandering samurai kind of thing. Some say he would be thrown in prison.

I just want to know what kind of ending would Naruto accept besides bringing him back with full redemptions. I guess that is what has been puzzling me for a while.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 22 October 2012 - 11:53 PM.

I wasnt talking about your behavior i was talking about why the mods is crossing the line above the rules we arent on a forum full of 12- people there are adultas here, i know you didnt mean to say hipocrit because it was obvious that you didnt find the correct term.
The problem is even if we discuss with no insults we can be banned ; When the correct should be continue all day alone unless you do not insult anyone wich for me is valid i really didnt think you insulted someome, i know you pointed ou calling "as some people of the forum" even with this does not say who they are because even me did not liked obito being tobi wich i ended up accepting even with second doubts because the story could be better, we ganied with narusaku parallels but the story lose a bit of quality.


See, we disagree on the points of obito being Tobi but it's a part of the naruto of a debate, the debate is clean when there are no insults but for some reason i think this policy is making a lot of people dropping this forum, i really wanted to know what was on that novel of road to ninja ( the book version) but ciardha is no more and other people wich i used to debate a lot i do think they dropped too.

Edited by dovahkiin, 23 October 2012 - 01:43 AM.

Okay, as long as we are clear. That's all. I thought you were directing it at me and I see I was wrong. Sorry. As long as we understand each other, I am fine with it.



Which is sad. We have/had brilliant minds here at one point and it sad to see that go to waste because of a fight or someone takes something the wrong way or any of those reasoning. I'm not sure who deserves what or who did what cause I didn't see it happen, but it is till such a shame.

I was just talking with a good friend who told me that this is the one reason why he never discusses on text based debates. The fact that their is no tone differentials means that things can be taken in more than one way even if they are only meant in one way. This may cause people to take things differently and I can see what he means by this. I am not going to apologize because I didn't do anything wrong, but I am sorry things did lead up to that and sorry many situations on this forum happen in such a way.

Whatever happened, I have no opinion, but I am sad to see great minds just disappear. Maybe this is why I am trying to put up these well thought out debates and try not to let my emotions mix into the fray, but mistakes do happen.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 23 October 2012 - 02:58 AM.

Another question, lol, what happens if the 10 tails is revived, does the moon get destroyed because it was sealed in it? and does that mean that the moon eye plan wont work without a moon?

It's my understanding that the moon is simply the storage container of the Ten Tails body, not its actual body.

Besides, Madara needs the moon for his plan. Once the Ten Tails has been revived, he intends to become its jinchuriki and then cast the reflection of his Sharingan onto the moon. That's how the Infinite Tsukuyomi will control everyone. So the moon has to be there for the master plan to work.

Edited by KnS, 23 October 2012 - 06:06 AM.

To add to KnS's answer in this chapter Madara said that he had already retrieved the Ten-Tails' body (the Gedo) from the moon.

I asked the same question a few posts ago, but it was swept under the debate...

I think there is a good chance we'll see Rin alive again, although she would probably be horrified at what Obito has become.

Maybe Obito doesn't want to to be resurrected as a zombie because it isn't technically "being alive"?



Naruto did deal with Jiraiya's death, he was able to look beyond the hatred, unlike Pain or Sasuke -- which is why he didn't become Sasuke. As for witnessing someone's death first-hand, what about Sasuke in the Land of Waves?

Don't forget that the Uzumakis are said distant relatives of the Senju, who are also related to the Uchiha.



I'm talking about "the demand" from fans are stereotypical of villains found in American media or politics, not that there are no insane villains from outside of American media.

Compare the popularity of Kefka to Sephiroth -- who has a similar story to Kabuto. Who's more popular?



Hm, I thought Kabuto could be considered a tragic character as well, not from simple identity crisis, but the fact that his mother could not recognize him. It's not different from Sasuke, their insanity is a manifestation from their horrific pasts.

Again, considering Kabuto has a tragic background, so he isn't the pure, undiluted evil that people were hoping for in "Tobi."



No, what I meant was - an 'insane' villain may be more theatrical, a 'sympathetic' villain is more interesting in the long run.

Kishimoto doesn't need to make his villains sympathetic, nor do they need a good reason. Likewise, Naruto doesn't need to empathize with anybody. But the fact that he does is what makes this manga so successful.

Edited by Nefertieh, 23 October 2012 - 09:23 AM.

Piccolo already destroyed the moon.

Surprisingly, Sephiroth is not as popular as you might think. Yeah he has a popular following, but some like Kefka more than Sephiroth because they deem him more a villain. Also, Madara is a political villain...umm Aizen is a political villain. The Nazi were used in Hellsing which were political villains. What do you consider the villains in Evangelion are? Such as the Angels, Gendo? Gendo seems to be one of those insane villains who acted as a good guy just so he could gain what he wanted. How does he compare to Kabuto?

American media has villains who want power or wealth or to take over the world. How many villains in manga share the same viewpoint? I am not sure if Kabuto is similar to Sephiroth. Yeah they both had "mothers," but Sephiroth went insane cause he found out he was nothing more than an experiment based of Jenova. Kabuto just killed a women who he called his mother. Not really his actual mother. What worse? That's up to you to decide.

Not every villain in all American media is like the Joker from Batman. Joker is such a unique villain in that his back story changes depending on the writer, but a common thing is that he became insane due to chemical exposure. The Heath Ledger Joker being different, but not every villain is like the Joker. If they were, Joker wouldn't be as interesting.

Obito seems more like Mister Freeze from Batman. Does whatever he can to regain the love of his life back.

And sometimes, "sympathetic villains" are boring after a while. Sephiroth is claimed by some that he is about as interesting as "mud."

Not all villains are based on American views either. Look at Hitler from Germany who is seen as a world wide villai, look at Joseph Stalin who is seen as a Russian villain, or Mussolini who is the Italian villain. So I don't think it is quite right to say that this is just an "American view point," because a villain can exist from anywhere.



But look at other manga that are just as successful and who have villains that are that insane without real sympathetic reasons for it. There are plenty in other manga like I pointed out, so it is not just an Americanized view point. Like I said, Aizen from Bleach and Knives from Trigun are also successful villains who have this construed visions of the world yet have no real sympathetic back story to cover it.

Knives became insane because he found out about the plants and what humans did to them. Vash learned of the same so why did Knives freak out and Vash didn't? They didn't grow up differently and they had the same influences. Aizen for example is one where he was a guy who just wanted power. He has no real sympathetic backstory and he was just a villain who wanted power.

And I also think a confusion is in when it is said "Insanity." Not all villains can be considered "clinically insane," but still have insane tendencies. I guess any view where a villain does something that many deem unnecessary is considered "insane". As I said not all villains are like Joker even in American media standards. Just because we deem them insane doesn't mean they are.

You also got villains from other media such as The Master from Doctor Who or the Daleks. You also got numerous James Bond villains who behave at may different wavelengths.

In the Naruto Manga we have heroes in a wide spectrum from grey to white. For the villain we don't really have that wide of range and most of them are in the greyer areas. I want a villain who is the darkest on the scale and I don't have to feel sympathy for them whether they had a tragic past or not. It would be nice to have at least one villain who is like the Joker because it gives a sense of variety.

As for sympathetic villains being more interesting in the long run, I think that is dependent on what the writer has them do. The most interesting villain to write, that is hard to sound convincing, is a villain who does the worse things and think they are the good guys. I mean actually believe they are the good guys while the good guys are perceived as the villains. Handsome Jack from Borderlands 2 is one such villain.

"You're Insane"
"I thought I was a Pisces."
-Vicki Vale to Joker.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 23 October 2012 - 04:59 PM.