Naruto 603

Well, I figured this Obito and Rin situation could only happen if she were separated from Kakashi and Minato. There would be no other reason why Minato and Kakashi wouldn't remember his mask at the very least.

Here is a unique thought for those of the deeper meaning of life stuff.

People always believe that the opposite of love is hate, but as a friend of mine told the real opposite is indifference. In order to have hate you have to care about the things that you hate. An emotional attachment. Obito loves Rin and seems to hate the fact that Rin was killed which is why he hates the world as is. If he was indifferent, then hate is non-existent. Can't hate what you don't care about.

As for respect. Madara shows that you can hate your enemy and still respect him. Madara respected Harashima despite the fact that he hates him.

Obito does have a point that peace through everyone loving each other is an improbable thing to accomplish. As long disagreement exist, there will always be people who "hate" each other simply because the person wants to be right. If Naruto truly wanted to end the hatred, why not just become a pacifist? The fact that he fights kind puts him in the same category just put on different sides of the spectrum. It seems all characters play a different view point of what is "good."

Danzou believed that you had to do evil for the greater good.

Obito believes in order to get rid of hate you have to get rid of free-will

Naruto fights the people that did evil onto others. (I still find it funny that he wants to end hatred, but ending such hatred would lead to him not having a job. What's the point of being a ninja/diplomat(Hokage) if everyone is going to be nice anyway? Sort of like Cops and crime. Cops exist because crime occurs, but if crime didn't exist then there would be no need for cops.)

Naruto seems to want to end free-will too in a way if you think about it. If hatred steams from disagreement, then you're basically saying you want everyone to agree with each other and that anyone who disagrees is wrong even if it is just opinionated. One could say I am over thinking, but I mean this seems to be pushed to that point.

I don't know, I am starting to think we're looking at this the wrong way or too literally. The purpose is not to end hatred, but to end hatred controlling you. You can always hate something or even hate someone, but to let that hate control you and take revenge on someone is what needs to stop. Just like the waterfall thing he did. He didn't get rid of the hate in himself by force or trying to reason it out. He ended the hate by accepting that hate exist and choosing not to act upon it.

Sort of "I fight my enemy, but do not hate them."

This.

I think this is precisely the message Kishi is trying to communicate. It's all about not letting hate take over you because, just like Nagato once said, hate leads to more hate. There will always be bad people in the world who deserve to face the consequences of their actions, but you mustn't let your hate influence how you go about imparting punishment.

Justice must always be delivered with reason and logic because if we only let ourselves be guided by emotion then we can make errors in appropriate judgment.

This is true. That's why the best way to get rid of something you don't like is to simply ignore it. The worst thing you can do is to give it attention, because that will only give it more publicity. By ignoring it, you are essentially depriving it of it's one source of life, so to speak.

Of course, this doesn't work with everything. There are things that need to be adressed and/or actively fought against. However, in most cases, indifference is a much better option than hate.



The respect comment was only really for the sake of making a point. The point was that there are often to ways to accomplish something. An easy way and a hard way and that while the easy way may be...well easier, it's often not as fulfilling as the hard way.

But yeah, Madara definetaly had a lot of respect for Hashirama, mostly because it seems like he's the only guy who's ever been able to defeat him. After all, a good shinobi should never underestimate his opponent.



That was also part of my point, but I guess I didn't convey it very well.

But yes, you are right that this is not about ending hatred per se. That would just be another form of subjugation. The idea is that, one of the greatest problems of the shinobi world (and also the real world) is that people don't listen to each other and/or try to understand each other. People act based solely on their own ideas and goals without even trying to understand other peoples viewpoints.

Hate doesn't create conflict. Miscommunication and a general unwillingness to try and undetand other is what creates conflict.

...and Naruto understands this now. When Pain aka. Nagato killed his sensei and completely destroyed his home, he could have chosen to act upon his thirst for revenge. At first he did,but then after he actually sat down and listened to Nagato and tried to understand where he was coming from, he decided not to become another victim of "the cycle of hatred". Another example of this, like you mentioned, is the waterfall scene.

So an ideal world for Naruto is no longer one where people are forced to be nice to each other, but rather one where the first option should always be communication rather than aggression.

actually theres alot of things that create conflict XD

I know what you were saying, but I was just reestablishing it for the other crowd, but even understanding another's viewpoint does not mean that it ends the hatred. In fact, it might even enforce it depending on the circumstance. I have known people to do such things to others and eventually I have come to realize that I have hated some people more because I learned why they did such horrible things.



Yeah, that's wrong. I'm sorry, but that is really definitely wrong. Look at real world aspects for example where people have done things in the name of a belief or upbringing or did something cause they were told to do it. People who have done things really horrible while another man claims they were for the righteous.

History really can show that hate alone has created some conflict among people such as racists, sexist, sexual orientation, religious views, and so on have. People always hate what is different. There no reason for it nor it is a lack of communication or understanding.



The bigger question is, do we as the reader understand this?



Okay, you talk to Madara then. See if he comes around. Go ahead....we'll be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back here. lol

Jokes aside, there are going to be evils in this world where communication is not an option. Some people just don't want to listen and really Madara doesn't seem like the kind of guy who wants to "understand" the world.

Another thing is, I am not sure if Madara's intentions and Obito's intentions are the same. Obito wants to do it because he wants to end hatred and pain. We got that. Are we sure Madara wants the same or does he just want to do it because he wants the power to be God. I actually foresee him doing the latter and claiming it for the greater good. Especially when Madara is shown to fight others to have power and rejects anyone who is against him or think he is nuts.

Chapter kind of sucked to say the least. I'm not digging the flashback at all.

Edited by Dreamer, 27 September 2012 - 02:35 AM.

it totally did not suck >:U!

it was awesome :3

(though im easy to please, which i think is a good quality after seeing all these complaints)

I think generally the fandom is more forgiving towards Itachi because he did come clean in the end, he was pivotal for the war, and that he did manage to make an impact on Sasuke that no one else could (despite what Sasuke himself says). It does seem hypocritical of th fandom to like him but hate Sakura for 'lying,' but he did redeem himself.




We did see Danzo's backstory, he spent the better half of his life in the shadow of Sarutobi, because he did not have the courage to fight.

I think people in the real world would much rather prefer to see villains made from nothing but undiluted evil, but that isn't realistic. As for the issues you've mentioned, Naruto can overlook that, but most of the other villains cannot. It is what separates him from Sasuke, it is what defines him as the hero.

Would you mind explaining what you mean??



Heh, what'd you expect?? all Uchiha are nuts. Obito is no exception



James, it's posts like these why I'm a fan of yours. I think you & Nate both have a point. But this is my conclusion on Kishi's message: Everyone has their own views. I think even Kishi understands that there are people who think they're righteous in this world and rejects people with different views than them. But however, the question is, why does Kishi go all the trouble making characters (villains) like this?? simple. It's not about understanding anymore rather, it's about knowing right now.

Knowing that there are others who will always have different views will lead to a better understanding of the world. Kishi did say once that he was targeting middle-school students for this manga. I think this message would be fitting for middle-school students since they're between a kid and a mature youth. Basically, Kishi's aim is to help middle-school students to gain a wider perspective on things. And quite honestly, what he's doing now is good enough for his target audience. It's not too much and yet not too little.

The reasons why Kishi is painting his villains in the grey area is to convey that everyone has their own beliefs and views. My point is, as you said, everyone has a reason to stick to their beliefs whether it be derived from hate, or love.

As to the matter of Naruto changing people, it's not about which view is better, rather it's about him trying to convey his views to his enemies. As for the rest and what the villains' reactions are, well that's up to them. Look at Obito, he was barely fazed (of course, it might be the mask) with Naruto's views. But as the hero, he has to succeed in convincing them. That's what I think Kishi is trying to do.

However, I hope Madara will be the exception.

Edited by Codus N, 27 September 2012 - 04:55 AM.

When I first read that scene, I actually did find that scene kind of creepy. Funny, still the best part, but I thought it was creepy at the time (though definitely not as bad as stalking (FYI, I don't think Hinata is a stalker.........even though there are a lot of good jokes about her being a stalker)). But when I reread it, it came off more....dorky then creepy. In fact the only reason why it came off creepy is because the chapter had that panel of pictures of Rin on his Obito's wall. It makes it seem as if he just some random stalker(...) who just takes pictures of the girl he loves and hangs them up on his wall. But Obito and Rin are friends, and they are on the same team, so it will make sense if he would have pictures of his friends on his wall. Though admittedly it is kind of weird that a majority of his photos are Rin focus...............but, in my opinion, it comes off more like a weird, dorky crush, rather than an weird obsession.

Also, if you still find it creepy, just take what Codus N said: he is an Uchiha, thus that admittedly makes him nuts.



I kind of hope so too, but he wouldn't be the only villain that I would have no sympathy to. I have no sympathy to Orochimaru, Danzo, or most of the Akatsuki members, to be honest. Even Nagato I have no real sympathy to, but that's mostly because of my own personal reason. The problem with Nagato with me was that I never bought his reasons for trying to achieve peace through his own way, through pain. When he talked about peace to Naruto, all I wanted to say was

"No, screw you, you are hurting innocent people. I refuse to achieve peace through that method, and I would rather not have peace if people needlessly have to die to gain it."

While that is, in a way, what Naruto sort of tells him in the end (he just simply says that he'll just continue to fallow Jariaya's methods, but I think that was in his own way saying that he refuses Nagato's method), it still took him several chapters/episodes for him to come to that conclusion. I didn't feel like Naruto needed to understand more about Nagato to reach that conclusion, which is why I didn't really find sympathy in those flashbacks (though I did find it nice that it all tied up at end with Jariaya's first novel). Every time he talked about peace it just came off as some philosophical nonsense, just like every time Itachi wants to bring up a lesson that he wants others to know. At least for Itachi's preaches there is at least something worth listening to, he still brings up interesting stuff, it just it comes off as making him seem more perfect. Unlike Nagato's talks about peace, which right away I called BS on his methods. I understand the sacrifice of the few for the greater good, but the destruction he was causing never seemed necessary. How was destroying the Leaf village because of his own, PERSONAL vendetta against the village lead to peace?

Now don't get me wrong, I still like Nagato (I still place him higher than most of the Konoha 9), and I know there are people who actually thought Nagato's methods were actually quite thought provoking. But I saw Nagato the same way as I did for Light in Death Note. I hated both of them, but I still like there characters because they were actually really interesting. But I rejected both of their methods of peace, because it involves the death of innocent people, and their deaths weren't necessary.

Another interesting theory. Somebody could write a good fanfic out of this. XD

We did see Hinata's stalker bedroom in the Rock Lee SD, I wonder if Kishimoto got inspired?



I think the idea is that the Ninja system itself is flawed, and it doesn't sound illogical to have a world without them. Remember, the ninjas were created from the fighting, not the other way around.

The whole theme of the manga is about striving to understand your enemies, rather than killing them. It doesn't even necesarily mean you have to agree with them.

Edited by Nefertieh, 27 September 2012 - 07:26 AM.

Anyone thinking that the chapter after the flashbacks or maybe two more chapters after the flashbacks, the alliance will finally arrive.

Though, there could also be more chapters after the flashbacks of Naruto and the others fighting against Obito and Madara and when they reach some kind of a moment where they are on a tie against each other or a close attack to Naruto that will be neglected, then everyone will turn to see from where was the source and, by surprise, we see the alliance has showed up.

If it would be that way, i can imagine the panel of the alliance has just reached the battle field, it will be a great one; everyone looks heroic and strong to get ready for the battle XD

Edited by T XD, 27 September 2012 - 08:57 AM.

That is true, but I never said that understanding other peoples viewpoints would end hatred and conflict. I merely said that it should be the first option. Basically, if you find yourself really hating someone, try to understand where they are coming from. If you find that you still hate them or still want to kill them (perhaps even more so than before), then so be it.



No, it's not the sole reason. However, it's still a big reason for why there is so much conflict in the world.

I know that some people just don't care and that they just hate something because it's different. However, I find that way of thinking rather irrational. Once again, just becasue you understand something or someone, doesn't mean that you can't hate it or go against it. It simply means that you can now make a much more informed choice than before IMO.



Do you mean in relation to Sasuke? I think that Naruto understand now that, if all else fails, he may have to kill Sasuke. He's already tried reasoning with him and that didn't work. so now the only other option seems to put him down for good.

I think the question of whether this is a good thing comes down to story vs. story conventions, i.e. Naruto should probably kill off Sasuke, but would this be good for the story? It's sort of like the Sakura hitting Naruto shtick. Some people say that it's a bad thing for her to do and if this was the real world Naruto would have probably got fed up with it by now. However, since it's just a story convention aka. a cliche, we're not supposed to take it at face value. Instead we're supposed to take it as an extremely exaggerated form of slapstick humour.

Likewise, while killing Sasuke might be the most sensible thing to do had this been the real world, it doesn't work in terms of the story because Naruto is "The child of prophecy who is meant to end the cycle of hatred and unite the world in peace" or something along those lines.

I'm not sure I would call it a good excuse, but it's an excuse nonetheless.



I don't think there's any reason to deliberately seek out Madara for an explanation. I'm sure he'll explain it himself in a few chapters.

It's not that I fully support this "understand each other" movement myself. I do believe that it's important to make as informed a choice as you can, but at the same time I acknowledge that there are some people who you just cannot reason with and like you said, Madara seems to be one of those people. He doesn't feel like he needs to try and understand others, because to him, they are clearly wrong. Likewise, he doesn't feel like he needs to justify his actions. In his case, aggression is the only option.



Neither am I. I think Madara is merely using Obito and his strong feelings for Kakashi and Rin as well as his good nature for his own gain. I wouldn't be surprised if his ultimate plan involves somehow betraying Obito by "absorbing" him or something like that.

The only reason for why I made the connection between the Uchiha ancestor and Madara was simply because that is the only things we as readers have to go on right now. That in the end, like NaruSaku4Life3g said, it will all come down to the concept of peace and how to achieve it. The easy way ot the "right" way.

@ T XD: ^ that would be great.

I actually kind of expect Madara & Obito to be forced to retreat somehow. The only thing I see that can force them to retreat is the damaging of Gedo Mazou. At the very least, I'm hoping Shukaku is freed.

Also, as much as I love the Obito flashback, I'd love to have one more flashback chapter after this flashback. This time, focusing on Kakashi's POV. Only then, would the story of Team Minato come full circle.

Lastly, I expect Madara to give the final blow to Kakashi's mental. I can see something like this:

Madara: A silver-haired ninja with a sharingan..... you must be Kakashi that Obito spoke of...
Kakashi: !!
Madara: ..... I must say, my moon's eye plan wouldn't have gotten this far without meeting Obito here. It was a fated meeting, perhaps. And you made it possible. I'm in your debt.

*cue psychotic breakdown*

Edited by Codus N, 27 September 2012 - 09:16 AM.

Thanks XD

I see Kakashi's mental being affected by Madara a great thing and i think it will happen in a way or another, like Kakashi's mental state is already in the process of broking down by seeing that Tobi is Obito and willl have to fight against him and Madara or Obito or both of them will bring the final blow.

But if Madara and Obito retreated, then what will be the next operation if everything stopped on their retreat ? It will have a major twist in the story line as like Madara and Obito could prepare for the next round and the others are heading back to the village or chasing after them.
It's very hard to do it along the story line on what is going till now, though not saying that Kishi isn't able to do hard work but a writer could let a story not to be complicated too much in term of story line.

Thank you. You've made my day. You are the 5th person that has said that my posts really made them follow me on here and I am glad I can enlighten people regardless if you agree or disagree with my views. I think that is such a great feeling when I can get people to look at different views regardless if I am right or wrong.

Maybe it is the same with Naruto as you said. You can understand your opponent, yet not necessarily agree with them. Knowing is half the battle as G.I. Joe says.



Yeah, you are right. I do have an answer for this, but I will explain this in response to another as it pertains to same topic. I'll mark it where you can read the thought.

It's funny that you mention the whole love and hate as these two things seem to go hand in hand a lot. Love can become hate and hate can become love. It also seems to show that this world is complicated and there are many truths and facts that not only change the way we think, but change the way the world works. Love is a strong emotion that not only can it build empires, but also destroy them. That's what fascinates me the most about it.



Yeah. The biggest the question of any universe is why people act the way they do. Everyone is different and while many say that Obito is weak to let one death affect him so much, it's not unheard of of people doing such a thing. Some could go through a lifetime of pain and lose and yet still maintain a life believing love conquers all, while others may believe that after losing one important thing life is not worth living through.

So, it's depends on mostly the individual.



(This is also in response to you Codus about your earlier point)

You're right, but it's not the ninja system that I am looking at. More like looking at the universe from another philosophical aspect.

To understand why, is to understand that evil must exist for good to exist. You cannot have good without evil and you cannot have evil without good. If everyone in the world was "good" then there is no such thing as good nor evil. You need to have the opposite to define what it really is. It's like if everything in the world was the same color there would be no color. (Technically, color doesn't exist. It is only a refraction of light bouncing off of molecules and whatever they don't absorb is what we see, but that is a different story.)

My point is is that to truly understand the meaning of existence you have to understand why it exists in the first place. If evil doesn't exists then what is good? Even now as we speak in these discussions, how can we know what is right if we don't know what is wrong? If evil does not exist, then what is the purpose of being "good?" If criminals do not exist to do crime, then what is the purpose of cops?

Without suffering there would be no compassion.

So, if Obito went through with his plan, and it ended hatred forcing everyone to live in a peaceful world without conflict, then Naruto can no longer be a ninja because being a ninja means you fight those who mean to do harm to your home. If there is no war why do we need soldiers? Naruto would need another professional....and without conflict this would be a rather boring manga.




The way you are typing is making it sound like this is what you mean. Perhaps I am reading it wrong or the point is not conveyed clear enough. Maybe a little of both.



No, it's not the sole reason, this is true, but to say that "hate alone does not create conflict" is wrong in itself. The Nazis based their whole idea behind hatred which is why people see them as the ultimate evil in our world and why neo-nazis are also a problem.



You'll find that a lot of people do things that might be seen as irrational or illogical. That's why crazy people exist lol. Like I said, it is all about the eb and flow of the universe. (Man vs Man, Man vs Nature. Man vs Self)



Erm, not just with Sasuke, but the whole manga.



Yeup. Typical villain to explain every plan he has thinking the hero couldn't stop him.



Exactly. There will always be villains that go beyond rational thinking and understanding. It's not always clear what drives them either, but the fact they do want to do all these things is what the hero must stop. I also find it interesting that you can have a hero that is the same way. There is no rational reason or understanding why he is a hero, but he just does it cause he wants to be or because he chooses to be.

I want to write a story where the hero becomes the hero not because he knows it is right or it is rational morality, but because he just wants to be the opposition to evil.

Civilian: "Why do you want to be hero? Is it because you want to fight for justice or maybe have some troubled past you want to save people from? What about love? Do you loves omeone so much, you want to fight for them? Ooh maybe you are the hero because of deep religious findings in your life and it is fate for you to be the chosen one."

Hero: "No, I'm just bored."



I agree. I also feel that Madara might betray Obito once he outlives his usefulness. Possibly even leaving him for dead. How ironic would it be if Obito saves Kakashi? I didn't really want Madara to be the main villain because it seemed too easy to make him one, but I guess it can't be helped now. So I accept it.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 27 September 2012 - 02:25 PM.

Betray?
You dont get it.
Obito's soul is destroyed, does not matter if he lives or dies just if the plan suceeds, there's no reason for madara to kill someome that is already dead.
In other words obito is just a tool now.

Edited by dovahkiin, 27 September 2012 - 02:34 PM.

Ummmm.....kind of mean there dovahkiin.

Obito's soul isn't destroyed. Only changed, but as shown with previous villains in this manga, they can be persuaded to be good again if they were once before.

Gaara's soul was considered destroyed as well and he was also used as a tool by Orochimaru and the sand village. Gaara himself also claimed he was nothing, but a tool for destruction. Yet Naruto was still able to convert him to being good again and Gaara wasn't always bad either.

Obito..well look how he is now. Does he look like a tool here when he is caring for Rin and Kakashi? He is going to be broken emotionally this up coming chapter(s) and this is where we see his downfall. People even don't want Obito to be a villain and Madara seems to be the kind of guy who promises Obito a life without pain and lose.

No, no. See, the Edo Tensei are tools. Lost souls brought back beyond their will to do the bidding of the one that is controlling them. Obito at this moment is defying Madara, by putting Rin and Kakashi before this crap. He only becomes a "tool" after his mind is broken, but Obito still has free will to do what he wishes. Sadly, he is just manipulated into believing in things that are wrong. Madara plays upon the sadness and the pain in individuals. He is manipulative claiming that peace will be achieved, but ultimately is only doing it for his own purpose.

Madara might see him as a tool, but that doesn't mean he is one. Many people thought the jinchuuriki are tools too, but Naruto is showing how this is wrong.

It is possible for Obito to be knocked back to his real senses whether you want this to happen or not. Just like how Darth Vader could be brought back to the light side of the force because of a single bit of hope that helps him see the true meaning to existence.

Edited by James S Cassidy, 27 September 2012 - 02:53 PM.

Gaara's soul is different, he thought he was right and was unable to have friends and such, obito had lost everything he cared about it's different he only wants to fulfill madara's plan.
Jinchuuriki is different than tools, they are weapons that why his "brother" is the hokage (bee) but he learn other things and care about other things to not get lost, naruto have nothing since the begining and he himself claimed that if wanst his friends he would have down the dark path.

Obitos is different he wants to change the world, and hasnt show any glimpses of redemption, yet i can still think about he doing something but if was for this is nto about friendship maybe because he does not believe in humanity, naruto maybe can change his views but his fate is alreay decided he will die.

PS: if rin dies and she says something like "now i will meet obito" or something similar it would WOWOWOW

Edited by dovahkiin, 27 September 2012 - 03:28 PM.