Chapter 436 Discussion

Chapter is out!

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/436/

Read and discuss.

Edited by Onionhead Attacks, 20 February 2009 - 07:19 AM.

the speech was what i thought he'd say, naruto will say his part next week, good chapter

Edited by Illmatic, 20 February 2009 - 07:45 AM.

Well its the typical thing about using violence to establish peace. Basically The "War-what is it good for?" Arguement. Kishi wants us to try and understand Pein's logic

God I hate filler Chapters and that's all this really was. Can't we just skip to the part where Naruto frees his hands, summons his last bunshin and goes Sage Mode on his ass?!

I don't really get Pain's logic either. Sure, there will be brief instances of "Peace", but there will be even more deaths as the super weapons are used again and again. Obviously, it's got Naruto's attention right there too, with that flashback. It's apparent that the Akatsuki's plans are full of flaws though. We don't know what Madara really wants either.

Nagato looks freaky.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/436/16/

For the life of me I still don't understand why we use spoilers to discuss this chapter when the people should very well know this thread is only for those who've read the chapter to discuss stuff about it.

Anyway, I understand Pain's logic, it's basically a twisted parallel to the Great Calm in FFX, or Cable's situation in "Cable & Deadpool". He's going to unite the world against one enemy. Make them see pass their differences by having the entire world mourn the loss of life at his hands. They'll all understand "Pain" and come to understand one another. And continuing through his new technique he'll crush everything, and... force them into peace. Again this is twisted logic. Once that peace exists, he'll sell the weapon to various lands for when they decide to fight again.... So in the continuing wars that ensue, they'll all be united through pain. Essentially, it would boil down to the total destruction of all the shinobi villages, and the populus will be diminished to but a handful of people, and they'd start over again, rebuilding their 'nations' until they grew big enough to be greedy again, and start wars. Yeah, his great calm won't last as long as FFX. And essentially, as others have said, he's not bringing peace to the lands at all. But in his mind, peace, maybe when you accept pain as a part of reality and come to terms with those facts, without fighting it. Peace is death.

It was very unsettling to see Nagato stump Naruto... When he answers "I just don't know..." It shows Naruto is changing a bit. He's no longer a complete kid at heart, his worries, his anger... He sees the consequences of what he says and does. Normally, he would just talking loudly about finding a way, not admitting defeat or not knowing, especially to an enemy, BELIEVE IT.

Rinnegan just continues to stack points against itself in my book of doujutsus. Yes its powerful, but I don't want to be a shell of myself.

On a side note... Where's SAKURA-chan?!!!?!?!?!?!?! Show her Kishi!!!! And make with the Kakashi living again!!!! What is Kishi going to do with the shinobi from Killabee's village? To the rescue? Where' Sasuke? I just want something to happen now.

I predict a NaruSaku moment coming soon, in like the next 2-3 chapters...

*still screaming: "Kakashi!!! Don't walk to the light!!!!" and wondering what's taking Samui's team to get to Konoha, not to mention Guy's team as well*

Anyways, I can understand Pain/Nagato's logic (I don't know why some of y'all think its a filler). We needed this because it is important to understand WHY Pain/Nagato is doing this with a twisted reason. Having Naruto just defeated him right there and now is a waste of character development and its ala DBZ, well sort of... not sure but anyways... Telling how he can have his own justice and peace... that's good writing (or translation). This is the reason why Kishimoto is unpredicted when it comes to writing.

I hope so. I hope there is also a chapter where Tsunade makes Sakura realize or Sakura herself realizes she shouldn't make her teacher's mistake, and tell Naruto, if he's captured, when she sees him again, what her feelings towards him are... Part of me wants Naruto to get captured just to see that. Who knows maybe if he's captured, Akatsuki will mostly draw out his Kyubi, then he's saved, and he won't have that inside of him anymore? And they save him just right before he dies, so he becomes only mostly dead, and then they go to Miracle Max's for a miracle pill... oh wait... wrong medium. Moving on, if maybe part of the Kyubi is in the weapon and the other half is still in Naruto, maybe he can control the weapon... Don't know, just conjecture right now. Boy, I went on a rant .



True! and not the H&E member but the word. :thumbs:

As I was reading this chapter, I kept going , "No! Don't listen to him Naruto!" With the expressions Naruto had, you could just tell that Naruto was feeling sympathy (or at the very least empathy) for Pein. As dissapointing as it is, I don't think that Naruto will be the one to kill Pein. This is another contrast Kishi has made between him and Sasuke. Sasuke is unable to let go of his revenge, of his rage, while Naruto will be. I think that Naruto'll either:

(a) change Pein's mind about nobody being able to understand each other, and just as he's changing Pein's mindset, Ino's dad and co find the real body of Nagato and kill him, making Pein die. A hollow victory, but neccessary to get Naruto determined to change the way the world is and bring about the revolution that was prophesized about.

or...

(b) change Pein's mind about nobody being able to understand each other, and just as he's changing Pein's mindset, Madara kills him.

I can't see Pein living, but I do think that there's a good chance he'll be reformed before his death.

As for Sakura, I do want to see her reactions to what's currently happening. We haven't seen her since Naruto was owning the fight.

This is an review that we should all read about the chapter:

http://mangahelpers....ead.php?t=46506

I'm glad that Naruto understood that a forced requisition of peace isn't peace, but peace out of fear. As others have said before, it looks like Pain's motives are to destroy the whole ninja world and focus people's anger toward one enemy in that way they will all be united.

Looks like Kishi has been watching a few episodes of gundam 00.

That review was a good read, it definitely opens up a new perspective on a few things.

Pain's idea of peacetime made me think of FFX too because of the whole "calm" thing and "sin is eternal" kind of like the super weapon would be.

One thing I noticed about Nagato is that he does not look like he's inside of a tower. That chair device he's in looks like it's pretty mobile with 4 legs and if you look at the foreground in the picture (pg16) it kinda looks like they're standing inside a huge hollowed-out tree or something. At any rate, he looks like he's outside and if he's outside then Ino was right about him being close to Konoha. Shikamaru's group might really be on to something.
Speaking of Nagato, seeing his real body completely reversed almost everything I previously thought about the guy. I was expecting a battle between him and Naruto that would be even bigger than the one in the last 5 chapters. But now we know why Konan (affectionately aka Post-it girl) left the fight... she is more worried about the health of her friend than the "justice" he is pursuing. We also can see why Madara holds sway over Pain even though the Rinnegan is supposedly the more powerful doujutsu.

Naruto's eventually going to see this shrivelly atrophied guy who's pretty much helpless on his own and I don't think he will be able to kill him. You can't help but feel sorry for the guy when you see his real body. Madara will probably be the one to kill Nagato, since he's evil enough to commit the act and at the same time he'd be getting rid of someone with a "better" doujutsu than his own. Especially if he fails to capture Naruto...

Edited by Nee-sama, 20 February 2009 - 06:50 PM.

Thanks for the link! Truesensei's review really put things into perspective for me. At first glance 436 is a great, though somewhat boring, chapter... However, the review really brought out some topics I didn't see... It made the chapter that much more awesome for me.

*Edit* I can definitely see where Pain is coming from... The World of the Ninja is one of hatred. Just think, Konoha is less than a hundred years old and yet it has gone through three major wars...

Most of the important people in the series have all gone through at least one tragedy. Tsunade lost Dan and Nawaki, Neji lost his father... Just a few examples but it shows how hate is propagated. The "Yellow Flash", the "Densetsu no Sannin", the "God of Shinobi", the "White Fang", etc etc... They got those titles by inspiring fear...

Ninja kills Ninja, a son grows up dreaming of revenge, and the cycle continues...

...anyway, Kishi is awesome... I love this arc. So insightful. Better than the Sasuke-crap last year... Although I suppose it served the purpose of setting up the rematch between Naruto and Sasuke.

Edited by JaredDrake, 20 February 2009 - 07:20 PM.

*nods* I really like this chapter. One part that stood out for me was when Pain said "people can never understand each other." While that's pretty much true...I think that Naruto and the people he's helped, most notably Gaara, are living proof that it's not completely impossible. But Pain, being a tragic victim of war, clearly has a too pessimistic view of life to accept that that will ever change anything.

Add to this chapter the fact that Naruto will soon learn that Sasuke wants revenge on Konoha...he's going to be very confused from here out, and I look forward to see how he deals with it.

Although I don't see it happening exactly like the ways Paptala said, I do agree, if Naruto is going to succeed in bringing peace to the shinobi world, he will have to convinced someone as curved as Pain to renege his beliefs.

I do love how Kishi has presented us with a yin and yang of the Child of Prophecy. Both students of Jiraiya, both raised in hostile environments, but two completely different ways of shouldering their part in the world. I believe in order for either to truly succeed, they would have to be able to convince the other that their way of doing things is correct. Great dramatic plot points here. And even though Naruto seems to have been pinned down, he has an ability that Pain does not have, and that is the ability to make understand and make friends quickly -- I'm not saying it'll be a suddenly Naruto parts the clouds and a rainbow shoots down on Pain making him see the entire spectrum of light, no. But in the conversation, Naruto hasn't said Pain's way is right yet, he only seems to understand the pain Pain talks about, through understanding another's point of view, its easier to shed new light on it. Pain just seems to be a hammer, his ideals are right, and so far no one has been able to challenge him physically or ... philosophically. <Yes, put philosophical battle jokes here> But if it's another ability Naruto has always had is the ability to reverse things on themselves, Neji's "fate is always determined", Zabuza's "Ninja are just tools, and so is Haku", Gaara's "Killing is what makes one strong and the sole reason for existence"... with one exception, which brings me to another point, if Naruto can convince someone as hell-bent on Pain and destruction to see the errors of his ways, he'll probably be able to convince Sasuke to do the same.

It's not as long as itruesensei's thing but hopefully others see some parts of what I'm saying too.

"Living within it, aware of the past, predicting the future. That is what it means to know history."

This is the hallmark of what Pein believes some continue to pursue war. Because as the generations move forward, despite how aware we are of the past, there is an ego that slowly forgets because the ego tells us we are different. So unless every individual knows the fear and pain of war; they must be living within this pain and fear. There will be a select few untouched by wars who will start wars in the hope of victory and domination.



A tense state of peace is not really peace. As we have learned in the twentieth century, no bullets have to be fired, no casualties have to occur for a state of war to exist. For much of the latter half of the twentieth century, the U.S.S.R. and the United States maintained a strained peace through fear through the concept of mutually assured destruction. Pain's peace is nothing more than an existence of remembering the horrors of the past, never truly feeling safe about the present and hoping that the world does not end tomorrow.

Pein see the chain of hatred binding generation after generation and as long as there is one generation in a line of grandfathers, fathers, and sons who can see peace, it is all you can hope for. But it will be nothing than an entire generation of armies waiting of one to fire the first shot; the constant fear that one shot heard around the world will trigger the dominoes that will fell peace.

Naruto may be naive in his idea of casting away the chains completely, that one day good and evil will clearly be defined. Naive but with the hope for a great dream. I certainly think the hope is greater than mere breaks and momentary pauses in the chain, inevitably knowing the cycle will resume; you are merely "predicting the future". Naruto may never achieve those great dreams of that great end, but the hope of shaping of such a future is better than being stuck of a future of slightly different cycle and accepting it.